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Old Today, 01:12   #48521  |  Link
jasonwc18
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Question about HDR > SDR tonemapping settings with a JVC RS600 projector

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
@madshi

I just wanted to say "well done!", the result is significantly better than what I've been able to get with any custom curves, especially regarding saturation in shadow detail and highlights.
Hi Manni,

I've read a lot of your informative posts on Doom9 and the AVS Forum (RS 500/ 600 thread), including your post today regarding the state of HDR on the JVC projectors. I was wondering if you could share the settings you are using for tone mapping HDR > SDR in madvr. Specifically, the peak display nits setting appears to be a matter of guesswork. madshi previously indicated that a minimum setting of 265 nits should be used regardless of the display's actual peak brightness.

You mentioned that you had experience calibrating SDR BT.2020 in Calman. I recently upgraded from a JVC RS49 to an RS600. I calibrated SDR/Rec 709/Gamma 2.4 manually with an i1 Display Pro and Calman, and then perfected the results in Calman with a madvr 3DLUT. I would like to do the same for SDR BT.2020 but the process seems more complicated. My understanding is that it is necessary to set the colorspace to Rec.2020, but because the JVC projectors are limited to the DCI-P3 colorspace with the filter engaged, I should use DCI-P3 saturation sweeps. Is this correct? Presumably, I would do the same for the 3D LUT generation. I assume I will need to open up the iris more and enable the filter.

Regarding my setup, I calibrated SDR/Rec.709 to 13 Footlamberts (Low, -10 Iris) with my 120" white unity gain screen but could go brighter for tonemapped HDR > SDR content. I have a fully light controlled room with no ambient light. The walls and ceilings are coated with black velvet 10' in all directions, with a black rug on the floor, and I have dark grey ceilings and dark navy blue walls extending farther back. I plan to cover the entire room was velvet over the next few weeks. I also use black velvet throws to minimize reflections off my leather couch.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Any opions about this anyone? Would it be a good idea to offer an "use RCA only if its comes for free" option?
Hi madshi,

First, I would like to say that I am extremely impressed with madvr. The NGU Sharp upscaling provides a very sharp image without visible artifacting, and I'm viewing content on a 120" screen from 10-11' away. In addition, the 3D LUT calibration yielded average deltaE errors for greyscale tracking and color under 0.5 with maximum errors of only 1.5. Really amazing results for almost no work.

As for your question, I think this would be a useful option. I'm using NGU Sharp (High) on a GTX 1070 for 1080p content which yields RCA for free. However, I discovered that this option is tremendously demanding when used on 4K content. It increased render times from approximately 30 ms to 80ms(!) when used in conjunction with NGU AA (Medium) for Chroma, as well as Light/High debanding, and the deringing filter. Removing the debanding filter (probably not necessary for 10 bit high-bitrate 4k BD content) and the deringing filter lowered my rendering times to 15 ms. I ended up creating profiles for each resolution as you suggested but a checkbox option would be easier. Moreover, it wasn't obvious to me that RCA was so demanding. Given my experience, it seems to be one of the most demanding options available when used at 4K.

Last edited by jasonwc18; Today at 01:25.
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Old Today, 01:20   #48522  |  Link
Manni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwc18 View Post
Hi Manni,

I've read a lot of your informative posts on Doom9 and the AVS Forum (RS 500/ 600 thread)
Hi, unfortunately this is mostly off topic here, I'll post recommended MadVR settings in the JVC AUtocal thread for the 2015 models, so make sure you subscribe to the thread. It will take a while though because I'm busy with work and there are a couple of things that are not working yet.

I'm still experimenting and apart from agreeing with Mashi re the peakY value (I used 200nits initially for a 120nits actual peakY, but I find that up to 400nits looks very good) I need more time to find the best compromise.

See you in the JVC thread
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Old Today, 02:13   #48523  |  Link
Clammerz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
The_World_in_HDR_in_4K_HDR10.mkv Let madVR decide scale normal
Your image links aren't working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Yes 4K->1080, but the OSD shows chroma upscaling, why?
You've probably already done this, but have you checked and confirmed resetting to default settings without profiles to make sure the option(s) work as intended in the basic scenario? If that is the case, it'll make it easier for us to confirm if we have the same behaviour.
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Old Today, 02:22   #48524  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clammerz View Post
Your image links aren't working.
Fixed, copy paste fail.

I'll try a fresh profile, what the heck, my OSD isn't displaying with screenshots either so maybe that might fix that too. Profile garbage =/

Nope, didn't fix either, seems The World in HDR needs chroma upscaling. Haven't seen this with any other 4K stuff.

Last edited by ryrynz; Today at 02:31.
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Old Today, 04:03   #48525  |  Link
austinminton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I can't. I don't store which profile is active when the madVR instance is destroyed. Maybe I should remove the deactivate command line option altogether since it seems to be of limited use.
Please don't do that. It works well to enable/disable 3D on the fly (during playback) in madvr + nvidia.
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Old Today, 05:49   #48526  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Yes 4K->1080, but the OSD shows chroma upscaling, why?
there is a quality for performance option for this.
and for some reason people just like to uncheck everything in there.

defaults are defaults for a reason just say.

edit: sorry could you add screens with the OSD so i can have a real look at what is happening with advanced rendersteps?

Last edited by huhn; Today at 06:09.
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Old Today, 09:27   #48527  |  Link
mytbyte
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I think chroma upscaling option means downscaling as well...

I downloaded the latest MadVR 0.92.11 and must report that I can now play, on GT 1030, UHD HDR 60 fps with HDR conversion on max settings, scaling is DXVA, chroma upscaling set to NGU: Sharp very high quality...can't say that switching chroma scaling between separately or not effects the playback...can't say if I did something wrong before and it's actually not up to the new version...

Last edited by mytbyte; Today at 09:59.
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Old Today, 10:41   #48528  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I thought users experienced with the device manager (? devices are BAD) would know what to do
We already discussed this but personally I don't care for yellow ? in the device manager, OTOH yellow ! do get me worried. It also wasn't clear to me that mVR was demanding further infos about my display.
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Old Today, 10:55   #48529  |  Link
leeperry
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Oh and the new RCA High@1 is amazing
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Old Today, 11:05   #48530  |  Link
el Filou
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Bit of a weird request, but would anybody have, or could produce, any 1080p test samples in both 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 uncompressed formats?
I'm trying to compare 4:2:0 material with Bilateral and NGU chroma upscaling to the original 4:4:4 material and so far the only samples I've found are 720p ones from Xiph (search for 4:4:4 in the page), and ideally I'd want 1080p ones (I know they'd be huge, but it's just for testing).
My impression from testing with the in_to_tree and park_joy samples is that NGU is better with most content unless there are on screen generated graphics, text (including text present on real objects from the scene being filmed), or very contrasted edges with red colour, (Edit: also, cartoons and anime), cases for which I prefer Bilateral because NGU gives weird artefacts which I spot even when simply watching some programmes on TV.

I thought about using photos from my camera converted from raw, but I'm not sure if the chroma downscaling used when saving as a JPEG is comparable to the one used by professionnaly produced video (and also I'd like to avoid JPEG compression adding a variable to my comparisons).
Edit: also, does anybody know what algorithm is usually used by the movie/video industry tools to downscale chroma for 4:2:0 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
Errr...that fps is EVR or MadVR? How do you get 61 fps from 60 fps video
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
this sometimes happens when playback is catching.
Sorry, I should have mentioned I meant using DXVA Checker (EVR then). It nevers goes above 61 fps in pure playback benchmark mode displaying at native size and just averages 60 fps, which would make it very tricky if not impossible to achieve drop-free 60 fps 8K playback in a real media player, except maybe by overclocking the card? But I won't test that as I don't 8K.

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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Nope, didn't fix either, seems The World in HDR needs chroma upscaling. Haven't seen this with any other 4K stuff.
It doesn't on my system with 1080 display. With the scale chroma separately option enabled, madVR just leaves chroma untouched and only downscales luma with that video.
I haven't downloaded your file though because I have it on my disk, mine is 353.890.717 bytes VP9 Profile 2.
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Last edited by el Filou; Today at 11:19.
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Old Today, 11:11   #48531  |  Link
leeperry
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I also wish the SR+NGU nagscreen wouldn't constantly appear but fair enough
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Old Today, 11:38   #48532  |  Link
mytbyte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post

Sorry, I should have mentioned I meant using DXVA Checker (EVR then). It nevers goes above 61 fps in pure playback benchmark mode displaying at native size and just averages 60 fps, which would make it very tricky if not impossible to achieve drop-free 60 fps 8K playback in a real media player, except maybe by overclocking the card? But I won't test that as I don't 8K.
Aha...I get 62 fps max in DXVA checker...that's the Peru 8K VP9 DL-ed from Youtube
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Old Today, 12:52   #48533  |  Link
Manni
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Is it possible to call a batch file in an external command in the custom profiles with a variable, such as test.bat variable
I tried with quotes: "test.bat variable" but that doesn't seem to be working.
Thanks!
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Last edited by Manni; Today at 13:01.
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Old Today, 13:36   #48534  |  Link
SamuriHL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Interesting setting, I never paid it any attention until now.

I would make sure to have a profile set up for using this specifically for 4K content only, it does however make the picture less sharp when it's enabled and it's obviously now not using my set chroma scaler (NGU AA) according to the OSD and changing the scaler makes no difference to the picture so it's using bicubic 150? which is my luma downscaler for 4K.

This doesn't seem entirely correct, it's definitely faster but given the changes it's not just scaling separately, Madshi how is chroma being handled here exactly?

Thing is on my 960 is drops render time from about 30ms on The World in HDR to about 8ms.. but there are obvious differences in the picture which you can see from the screenshot below.

However, setting this also allows me to preserve the hue from HDR in high quality which IMO looks slightly better than it being in low quality and not scaling chroma separately with NGU AA.
That with HALF the rendering time is quite nice, I can deal with this on my 960 at only 15ms. I guess everyone with lower powered cards should consider using this combination of settings for HDR.

The_World_in_HDR_in_4K_HDR10.mkv Let madVR decide scale normal


The_World_in_HDR_in_4K_HDR10.mkv Let madVR decide scale separately


The_World_in_HDR_in_4K_HDR10.mkv preserve hue HQ and scale chroma separately


Okay, so this file requires chroma upscaling which isn't the norm for 4K content when downscaling to 1080.
I should go back and try it with that turned off. It was recommended to me when I first started trying to get 4k down scaled because I was having issues. But yes it lowers render times significantly. At a cost for sure.

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