Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd December 2020, 17:52   #1061  |  Link
VBB
Registered User
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 620
+1 for QBhd's post. Saw it last night and thought, damn, that must have taken some time

@As - Thanks for the update! Gives me some hope

@huhn - Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I want to say yes LOL

@bkrieger - Don't think anyone has mentioned it, but the main problem with the 980 is that it doesn't have a hardware decoder for HEVC. That's why you're having issues with HDR, but probably not with SDR.
__________________
Henry | LG OLED65C7P | Denon AVR-X3500H | ELAC Uni-Fi x7 | ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 | NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 | Plex
VBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 18:39   #1062  |  Link
QBhd
QB the Slayer
 
QBhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 697
Thanks for linking that here quietvoid... I was thinking that I should do that tonight... As for time, it really wasn't too bad. The i1Display Pro Plus is fairly fast and I use the Mehanik "Combined Hybrid Delay" files which line up almost perfectly with the timing of the measurements... only the 0% needs a pause of about 3 seconds. I use my ATi All-in-Wonder Pro remote and set the mouse pointer on the "Ok" button and just click every few seconds :P

As for interpreting the results for us OLED users... What I think is happening is that the DPL setting in madVR does not reflect the true nature of OLED. DPL in terms of a projector should not matter what size window is used. A 1% window should give the same results as a 100% window in terms of Peak Luminance. But as we know, that is not the case with OLED. If we go to RTings and look at what they measured, a 2% Peak is 979 (clearly not a sustained value). I think if we set DPL to anything lower than this we will lose those intense specular highlights and even lose a small chunk of 10% windows luminance (DPL 700 measured 724, while it is clear that the panel can go up to 761+).

What I think the value of Pixel Shader Tone Mapping for us is... all file types (different MDL/Max CLL/Max FALL) will be displayed the same. If you noticed some values were repeated in my test and highlighted red... those were using a 1000/1000/400 file, while all the rest were using 4000/4000/1000... and the results were exactly the same for those duplicates. The TV is going to tone map regardless what we do, but at least we can have madVR do all the heavy lifting of handling various HDR file types and send the TV something that is consistent.

QB
__________________
QBhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 19:13   #1063  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
Yea, I agree with your assessment. If you can measure your display, that's what you should use for real display nits. The argument about 700, at least on the C8, is that it appears that above that the tv uses a more aggressive curve. We've no way to set the damn thing like later models do. So even though my display, depending on how I calibrate it, can hit close to 800 nits, I've set it to 700 to avoid the TV from going to a more aggressive curve. There may be a reason, though that the UB820 tone maps to 1000. Perhaps more experimentation is warranted given what you've shown.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 19:20   #1064  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 366
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but, certainly with the 2020 models, what are the "real" practical benefits of using Madvr to tone map? I have to say, straight passthrough is amazing.

Asking for a friend, of course,...
__________________
LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema
oldpainlesskodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 19:59   #1065  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
It's a question of static metadata tone mapping vs dynamic frame measuring tone mapping. It really can be remarkable what madvr brings to the table compared to static tone mapping solutions. If you've seen dolby vision on your display vs regular passthrough hdr...yea, it's like that.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 20:18   #1066  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 366
hmm, tried it, (700 nits etc) I'm not coming at this from a confrontational perspective, but I really don't see it. Maybe its just meant for low nits projectors after all?

Emperors new clothes an all.
__________________
LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema
oldpainlesskodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 20:18   #1067  |  Link
QBhd
QB the Slayer
 
QBhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 697
@SamuriHL... I would argue that at 700 DPL the C8 is far more aggressive in the tone mapping. Look at the curves between 501-800. They are all different and they all show a lot less maximum brightness. Whereas the curves again track better from 850-1200.... The 1100 and 1200 data points were just to show that nothing changes above 1000.

I think the C8 wants 1000/1000/400 content... Most movies have this as the metadata and the C8 tracks this very well. It's when we start going above and below this that curves start moving around.

I will be doing more research very soon...

QB
__________________
QBhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 20:32   #1068  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
Which is why I want to try 1000 again and see how well that goes. It may be a better setting for us and maybe we can turn off some of the more aggressive settings in madvr while using it. (I'm thinking sky detection, shadow recovery, highlight recovery, etc). But we'd have to see how that works with an obnoxiously high NIT movie. Most movies barely go over 1000 or so anyway. But I agree, I think there's a real reason why Panny chose 1000 for OLED tone mapping.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 20:38   #1069  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
hmm, tried it, (700 nits etc) I'm not coming at this from a confrontational perspective, but I really don't see it. Maybe its just meant for low nits projectors after all?

Emperors new clothes an all.
All good. Use what looks good to your eyes. It's going to be different for everyone. I have seen cases where madvr made a marked difference which is why i continue to use it. And we may be on to improving it even further. Question for you in your setup. Do you have LG's dynamic tonemapping turned on or off?
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 20:47   #1070  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 366
I understand the reason for the question - it's on.

Your OLED is from 2019?
__________________
LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema
oldpainlesskodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 20:57   #1071  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
No I have a C8 which is 2018. There's a lot LG changed in the last couple models since mine.

As for dynamic tone mapping of the LG, that's not something they've improved. And that is also the reason you don't see a lot of difference between madvr and passthrough. As long as you're happy with that, it's good. I and others here are absolutely not.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 21:07   #1072  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 366
Ok, that's interesting...mine is a 2020 model....maybe they improved?
__________________
LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema
oldpainlesskodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 21:25   #1073  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
It's possible I suppose. But on the 2018 models, it messes with brightness in the mid SDR range. And other undesired brightness tweaks. Some people like the added brightness. Others like myself do not.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 21:32   #1074  |  Link
bkrieger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Your settings are simply too high. You need to get your rendering time lower.

average stats
rendering 51.21ms
present 0.30ms

Both have to add up to about 40 ms or less for 24 fps video. You have to turn off some options, either disable some sharpening or set chroma upscaling to jinc or spline3 or both.

Edit: actually, your sharpening isn't active. Set chroma upscaling to Jinc. Jinc is the highest quality "pure math" scaler and it is much faster than NGU. I don't really like NGU low but you could also try that. Super-xbr or some of the other fancy options are also faster than NGU medium, you could try them.

Cubic (Bicubic60) is great for chroma upscaling, and super fast.

Or a faster GPU, of course.

Thank You. I will try those options and settings. I had thought that NGU was the best to use and that was what I was using before I upgraded from my Panasonic 1080P Plasma to this LG CX. I do plan on upgrading to an RTX 3080 TI when released and in stock early next year. Couple more questions-

I had read that under exclusive mode under present several frames in advance, it has said to change to 1 and if any errors change to 3. Set at 1 I was getting glitches. Should I leave this at 8, or what number should this be?


Under general settings I have both GPU and CPU Queue set at 24. Is this correct? Also should present a frame for every VSync be turned on? I have Vsync and triple buffering turned on in the Nvidia Control Panel

Also in the Nvidia control panel should I leave color settings set to RGB and limited and blacks in the tv settings set to low? I had read that if RGB is set to full blacks need to be set to high


Under calibration settings should I leave it at BT 2020 or should it be BT 709?


Finally, under HDR settings is it ok to pass through to the TV or do I need to use tone mapping? The tone mapping settings seem complicated and I’m not sure what to set the settings at.

Thank You. I will try to play either the settings more tonight
bkrieger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 22:00   #1075  |  Link
QBhd
QB the Slayer
 
QBhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 697
Just to clarify again... The data I gathered was with 4000/4000/1000 files... with few points of 1000/1000/400 to check if there is a difference, there was no difference. This is our benefit.

I plan on eventually doing research into each of the settings I have disabled... But that is further down the road and I have other things in mind for the next session... Maybe tonight...

QB
__________________
QBhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 22:11   #1076  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
Looking forward to seeing your results. I plan on doing some playing around tonight, as well. You've now got my curiosity peaked.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 22:18   #1077  |  Link
VBB
Registered User
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkrieger View Post
I had read that under exclusive mode under present several frames in advance, it has said to change to 1 and if any errors change to 3. Set at 1 I was getting glitches. Should I leave this at 8, or what number should this be?

Default is fine here, or lower down to 3, which might be beneficial. Setting this to 1 is not necessary with the 9-series.

Under general settings I have both GPU and CPU Queue set at 24. Is this correct? Also should present a frame for every VSync be turned on? I have Vsync and triple buffering turned on in the Nvidia Control Panel

Leave the queues at default (16/8). Lower might be OK, higher is unnecessary.

Also in the Nvidia control panel should I leave color settings set to RGB and limited and blacks in the tv settings set to low? I had read that if RGB is set to full blacks need to be set to high

You definitely want RGB full there. Then it's up to what you do with the black levels on the TV. If all you do with your PC is watch media, I would suggest you set the TV to low. This will crush black levels for everything else, but playback will be fine. Make sure to set madVR to 16-235. If you use your PC for everything, then set black level to high and madVR to 0-255.

Under calibration settings should I leave it at BT 2020 or should it be BT 709?

If you're using PC mode with the TV, then the gamut is locked to wide (on my C7 it is), so you want to set madVR to DCI-P3 in this case. If you're using normal HDMI mode, set it to auto on the TV, and set madVR to BT.709. Make sure to also set madVR's gamma to match whatever you use with the LG.

Finally, under HDR settings is it ok to pass through to the TV or do I need to use tone mapping? The tone mapping settings seem complicated and I’m not sure what to set the settings at.

With the 980 in particular, you don't have a choice to use tonemapping, really. Like I said above, the 980 cannot decode HEVC in hardware, so you see a big hit in performance just there. I suggest you use straight pass-through and then tweak the chroma upscaling to whatever you can get away with.
See my responses in bold
__________________
Henry | LG OLED65C7P | Denon AVR-X3500H | ELAC Uni-Fi x7 | ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 | NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 | Plex
VBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 22:56   #1078  |  Link
bkrieger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
See my responses in bold
Thank You very much for all of your detailed responses. I mainly use my Pc for media as well as playing video games. The reason I had a question on black levels is I did have it on low with RGB Full, but I had read on another forum that if you set RGB To full Black levels should be set to high, and if you have RGB on limited then set the black levels to high. Is it stillOK to leave RGB on full and blacks on low? I have my PS5 source set to black levels on low as that is what is recommended.


Should VSYNC be turned on in the Nvidia control panel as well as triple buffering?


I have my TV set to HDMI mode as I had read mixed results with using PC mode. Is this correct?

Thanks again
bkrieger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 23:40   #1079  |  Link
VBB
Registered User
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 620
I leave all Nvidia 3D settings on default these days. I don't even go to the advanced settings anymore. So, VSync on "let the app decide" is just fine.

For black levels, like I said, if you have mixed usage with the PC, best to use RGB full -> madVR full -> TV high.

Normal HDMI is fine for most people.
__________________
Henry | LG OLED65C7P | Denon AVR-X3500H | ELAC Uni-Fi x7 | ELAC Debut 2.0 SUB3030 x2 | NVIDIA SHIELD TV Pro 2019 | Plex
VBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 23:42   #1080  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,406
On the CX PC mode is very similar to HDMI mode, it is much less of an issue than it was with the C9 and earlier. The other modes also have much higher latency, so if you do use it for games I suggest keeping it in PC mode. I always use PC mode on my CX and I am quite happy with it, no downsides v.s. HDMI mode. I have calibrated my PC mode for SDR, with a BT.709 gamut, so I am not using it in its out of the box configuration.

Don't use VBB's suggestion of a mismatch of levels between GPU and TV. Since you game you cannot rely on madVR to always fix the black levels. VBB's suggestion for RGB full with TV set to low only works if you care about NOTHING outside of madVR.

For general use I get best results sending my CX YCbCr 444 limited instead of RGB limited. YCbCr is normally limited and RGB is normally full range. There is no reason to use ever RGB limited in my opinion, YCbCr limited is the better option in all cases. At best RGB limited is the same as YCbCr limited.

Set madVR to full, the GPU to YCbCr 444, and the TV to low.

For madVR leave the Vertical sync and Triple buffering options on their defaults, "Use the 3D application setting" and "Off" respectively.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.