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17th February 2014, 11:38 | #23341 | Link | |
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Please be so kind as to define "video purist", I'm new to this hobby. I quit doing weed ages ago if that's what you meant, it gave me the munches Mind you, many ppl see have previously seen differences between those algorithms, but apparently only one person bothered sitting down and scrutinize changes between the A builds so far: 1GHz HD7850, W7SP1, NNEDI 64x/ED all the way, dead-on REC709 gamut mapped 3500:1 32" A-MVA panel LED TV with BFI turned on from a 80 cm distance in a pitch black room. |
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17th February 2014, 11:53 | #23342 | Link | ||||
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What comes in, comes out, as the mastering engineers intended. Properly calibrated equipment (to a standard) without enhancements. Quote:
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I voted A2 after a comprehensive test. Quote:
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17th February 2014, 11:53 | #23343 | Link | |
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Color 250, AD4 wins by a mile, that center bit just get fixed man. The graduation is much better than the rest IMO. I'm all over AD4. Only reason I could possibly see passing it up is if it's brighter than it should be.. Anyone wanna put together a pot for this? XD Mean signature. "I'll DBT anytime you want" Last edited by ryrynz; 17th February 2014 at 11:56. |
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17th February 2014, 12:02 | #23344 | Link | |
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The 250 Color undergone a slightly different procedure than 88 & 150, to see the difference clearer. Yes, A4 is better than A1. I wouldn't mind if A4 is selected as the final build, but NOT A1. I still like A2 the most, but A4 will also do.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 15:03. |
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17th February 2014, 12:19 | #23346 | Link |
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@Ver Greeneyes
Can you please make an, 8-bit yuv444p video of Color & Grey, to compare the dithered 16-bit vs undithered 8-bit at the same frame? True 8-bit video should not be dithered at all, right? The purpose of this is to test the Gamma or any other deviations between the builds. Thanks.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 13:18. |
17th February 2014, 12:28 | #23347 | Link | |
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But whenever you are going to watch any video content through MadVR, then of course enable dithering as the banding that is produced without it can be visible in some content. I have tried to tell the difference between all the new ED builds, but frankly I guess my eyes aren't keen enough to see the difference. I'm currently using EDAD4 and have seen no problems with anything I've watched through it. Same goes for all the previous builds which I have tried with regular content.
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17th February 2014, 13:04 | #23348 | Link |
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The clearest Comparison: Color 110 AD1-4.zip
EDIT: The last comparison had an error, this zip (fixed) should accurately reflect whats going on.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 14:58. |
17th February 2014, 14:04 | #23349 | Link | ||||
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I should have also stated that I run Reclock & have "low" debanding forced in mVR. Quote:
Anyway, this quote might save the day: Quote:
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Yep, chroma is such a big deal when it comes to sharpness. I'll take 4:2:2 BFI over blurry 60Hz-only 4:4:4 LCD anytime of the day. Especially as the TV runs a 10/12bit video engine and I feed it J3AR chroma to begin with. Necessary evil - perfect world, you know the drill. Last edited by leeperry; 17th February 2014 at 14:06. |
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17th February 2014, 14:09 | #23350 | Link |
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That isn't just a tad brighter, but rather multiple levels brighter. I'd question your special brightening method for causing this discrepancy. You must have brightened A1 & A4 more than A2 & A3 because of noise level differences. In untouched form, all these adaptive routines should have identical overall brightness with 1/100th of a level step accuracy.
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17th February 2014, 14:19 | #23351 | Link | |
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You are correct. There is one step error with the last zip file, I'll fix that right away! Fixed: This post. Instead of changing the Input Levels, I just move the middle slider of the Output Levels closer to 255 to give that result.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 15:04. |
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17th February 2014, 15:07 | #23352 | Link | |
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I still need to update the colored version. Edit: 8-bit version re-encoded in "bgr0" color space (should be the same result as rgb24), and updated the colored versions.
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Test patterns: Grayscale yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version), Multicolor yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version) Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 17th February 2014 at 15:56. |
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17th February 2014, 16:07 | #23353 | Link | |
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Really (and I believe madshi has pointed that out already, and you are basically reiterating here) pixel art calls for specialized methods. This being said, if you are willing to use NNEDI on pixel art, you may as well give a try to a tuned Jinc. |
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17th February 2014, 17:33 | #23355 | Link | |
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Of course it is very valid to test with 8bit sources though, because thatīs what most of the current content comes in. Thatīs why I asked some pages ago if someone had access to some real world high-bitdepth footage (like TimeScapes), since we could (I know leeperry would be able to, his display is also well equipped, because he has a way higher dynamic range to begin with) more effectively see the differences, because our eyes are trained to perceive nature and compare it at the same time with reality, instead of artificial patterns. Last edited by iSunrise; 17th February 2014 at 17:39. |
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17th February 2014, 18:15 | #23356 | Link |
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There shouldn't need to be any upsampling if you test this at 100% zoom on a monitor that's big enough (that's one reason I used 1920 for the width - I could make the height smaller for 1920x1080 monitors though, so you can open it in a maximized window instead of being forced to use full screen). The 8-bit video is encoded with 24-bit RGB, so there's no need for conversion, and the 16-bit video is encoded with YUV444, which also doesn't require chroma upscaling (but does require conversion into RGB). Of course, any other processing that madVR applies (such as a 3DLUT) is going to require dithering.
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Test patterns: Grayscale yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version), Multicolor yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version) |
17th February 2014, 18:24 | #23357 | Link |
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Thanks..it's just that leeperry seems to be able to make subjective impressions quite easily. I have an accurately calibrated 10bit 40" display which serves as my desktop monitor, along with a practiced eye, and figured I could define differences by viewing actual content in a normal viewing environment. Apparently not..and lord knows I tried...
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17th February 2014, 18:32 | #23358 | Link | |
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What's the calibrated contrast figure on that monitor? Because I guess things would get tough with IPS/TN and a thick antiglare pearly/grainy layer, possibly with PWM on top of it. Also, are you wearing glasses? Are they made of organic glass? Mineral glass is the way to go when you need optical resolution, nothing matches their constringence AFAIK. Ages ago I bought some super light polycarbonate glasses but they only offered like 20 Abbe, I was sitting 3 meters away from a 2m large projection screen and it was so frigging blurry......I finally went for 59 Abbe mineral glass et voilā )) |
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17th February 2014, 19:15 | #23359 | Link | ||
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Also, it would require to always select "8bit (or higher)" under the "devices - properties" tab. Quote:
Do you have a sample where you see this noise, because Iīm interested to compare it on my hardware-calibrated Eizo (that only has about 700:1 left after calibration to REC709). Now that we have A4, I can see a lot more noise in general. And it think thatīs a good thing, because that doesnīt seem to be the cause of the new dithering-algorithms at all, but it finally shows us a higher effective bit-depth of the original source, whereas the smearing/extreme noise of random dithering made that less visible. With random dithering, there was just so much noise all around, it added a whole layer of unnecessary thick noise, that even was colored noise, so that there was no breathing room for fine details at all. Now, with the newer algorithms, actual source noise has more room to breathe. And especially the blacks became a lot more refined and differentiation seems to have improved. At least for higher dynamic range display, this will probably make a world of a difference and I am sure thatīs why some also see differences than others. Iīm still not entirely sure about the differences between the adaptive variants on my display, it takes so much concentration in actual movies/clips that itīs very time consuming and cannot be done at day times, because my eyes (all senses) work better at night time (more sensitive). All I can say is that, with A4, we seem to have arrived at a level that satisfies me a lot. Even though Iīm not sure what 6233638 and cyberbeing think about it and I want to hear their opinions. Last edited by iSunrise; 17th February 2014 at 20:13. |
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17th February 2014, 19:57 | #23360 | Link | |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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