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Old 14th October 2019, 10:18   #1861  |  Link
sneaker_ger
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MPC-HC 1.8.4 (LAV v0.73.1) uses libaom for AV1 decoding, 1.8.5 (LAV v0.74) uses dav1d. dav1d isn't optimized for 10 bit AV1 yet and it seems for this particular case and your hardware that libaom is faster (for 8 bit dav1d is much faster). Probably same problem for mpv. As dav1d matures this problem will be solved.

https://code.videolan.org/videolan/dav1d/issues/216
https://code.videolan.org/videolan/dav1d/issues/78

Last edited by sneaker_ger; 14th October 2019 at 10:20.
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Old 15th October 2019, 00:27   #1862  |  Link
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Unfortunately it's impossible to use VMAF directly for RDO because an encoder has to evaluate distortion on very small blocks, down to 8x8 pixels. So the best you can do is come up with something that approximates it.
And VMAF isn't THAT great a metric. Many encoders will do some more sophisticated things internally. particularly around maintaining temporal coherence. VMAF does at least include a lightweight interframe comparison metric, but it doesn't do anything new to figure out how the variation of quality of individual frames impacts the overall viewer experience.
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Old 15th October 2019, 00:31   #1863  |  Link
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Originally Posted by dapperdan View Post
I couldn't find any x264 tune ssim encodes, but I did find some x265 tune PSNR that show basically the same pattern. Tuning for PSNR at the expense of Fast SSIM, while other metrics don't really change.

The major difference is that the PSNR tuning seems to help with CB and Cr for x265, not just the Y channel.
Well, "help" in the sense that PSNR metrics would improve. --tune psnr reduces the subjective quality of the content at a given bitrate BY optimizing only for improved PSNR scores.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 13:02   #1864  |  Link
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First commercial AV1 hardware decoder, claimed by Chips&Media and it's called Wave510A.

Can handle 4K60fps AV1 main profile using one core@500MHz and expands to dual core@1000MHz for 8K60fps.
Supports AV1 8bit/10bit up to 8Kx8K and up to 50Mbps

More here:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15003...av1-decoder-ip

and here:
https://en.chipsnmedia.com/page/product_view/5919
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Old 23rd October 2019, 13:57   #1865  |  Link
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Can handle 4K60fps AV1 main profile using one core@500MHz and expands to dual core@1000MHz for 8K60fps.
I wonder what the power draw for those configurations are.
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Old 24th October 2019, 16:46   #1866  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Originally Posted by NikosD View Post
First commercial AV1 hardware decoder, claimed by Chips&Media and it's called Wave510A.

Can handle 4K60fps AV1 main profile using one core@500MHz and expands to dual core@1000MHz for 8K60fps.
Supports AV1 8bit/10bit up to 8Kx8K and up to 50Mbps

More here:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15003...av1-decoder-ip

and here:
https://en.chipsnmedia.com/page/product_view/5919
Interesting!

I wish there was some hint on how many transistors this takes, so we could estimate the silicon cost of adding it to a chip. It could be bigger than normal as this is JUST an AV1 decoder, without sharing anything with H.264/HEVC/VP9/etcetera decoders. In a more mature implementation, one would expect an integrated decoder which supports multiple bitstreams. That takes a lot fewer transistors in total that having all those as independent decoders.

400/500 MHz is pretty reasonable, as it can run in a processor in a relatively lower power state for better battery life on long-term content.

I am not a deep SoC guy, so take all above with an appropriately scaled grain of salt.

I'm looking forward to seeing an announcement for the first device with HW AV1 decode. AV1 isn't relevant for premium content until a material portion of customers have devices with HW decoders with integrated HW DRM.

So much hinges on whether the additive cost of AV1 decode will be low enough to be a default in lower cost SoCs in the next year or two. I'm kinda startled how murky that still is as we approach 2020.
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Old 24th October 2019, 21:10   #1867  |  Link
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Considering the timeline it looks like SnapDragon 865 (or whatever comes after SnapDragon 855) won't support AV1 HW decoding which is a huge bummer.
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Old 24th October 2019, 22:17   #1868  |  Link
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Considering the timeline it looks like SnapDragon 865 (or whatever comes after SnapDragon 855) won't support AV1 HW decoding which is a huge bummer.
Samsung's next chip doesn't have AV1 and they have actually joined AOM, so Qualcomm's conspicuous absence from AOM makes their support for AV1 dubious at best.
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Old 25th October 2019, 19:19   #1869  |  Link
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Leaked Amlogic roadmap showing the Amlogic S905X4, S908X and S805X2 chips that will support AV1. The S905X4 looks to be shipping within the next few months:


Last edited by hajj_3; 25th October 2019 at 19:22.
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Old 26th October 2019, 21:46   #1870  |  Link
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Does Youtube keep the original of every video? Will every video receive an AV1 version? Just future ones?
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Old 26th October 2019, 22:09   #1871  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Adonisds View Post
Does Youtube keep the original of every video?
Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adonisds View Post
Will every video receive an AV1 version? Just future ones?
Possibly every video but we can't say for sure. It will cost a lot of cpu time/money to convert all videos in all resolutions (+SDR/HDR) to AV1. For the longest time Youtube did not encode all videos to VP9 either. So we don't really know how it will be for AV1.
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Old 26th October 2019, 22:39   #1872  |  Link
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Originally Posted by sneaker_ger View Post
Yes.



Possibly every video but we can't say for sure. It will cost a lot of cpu time/money to convert all videos in all resolutions (+SDR/HDR) to AV1. For the longest time Youtube did not encode all videos to VP9 either. So we don't really know how it will be for AV1.
Thank you. Are all videos from before VP9 available in VP9?
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Old 26th October 2019, 23:48   #1873  |  Link
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Meanwhile AV1 was only standardised last year, it takes time to get these new codecs ship shape for production purposes, let alone significant maturity.
Due to the extended interest in AV1 from such a wide group of companies, could we expect to see it gain traction faster than 265 at least?
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Old 26th October 2019, 23:57   #1874  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Kirakishou View Post
[Xrip][Nekopara][OVA_Extra][GB][1080P][AV1_10bit].mp4 .


As predicted, anime teams are always first to adopting crazy new codecs as soon as possible. I love these guys, they're nuts <3
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Old 27th October 2019, 11:44   #1875  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Adonisds View Post
Thank you. Are all videos from before VP9 available in VP9?
No. Google encodes into VP9 only videos with more than N number of views or views pre day where N or N/day are yet to be determined.

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Due to the extended interest in AV1 from such a wide group of companies, could we expect to see it gain traction faster than 265 at least?
I really doubt that considering that AV1 is up to two orders of magnitude more computationally expensive and older x86 CPUs cannot even decode FullHD 60fps videos encoded in it in real time.
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Old 27th October 2019, 14:18   #1876  |  Link
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Due to the extended interest in AV1 from such a wide group of companies, could we expect to see it gain traction faster than 265 at least?
Probably a lot depends on how you define traction in this situation.

For example, it wouldn't surprise me if the total stream watch time for AV1 is already above HEVC due to YouTube encoding low res versions of popular videos. Mozilla released some numbers that suggested AV1 Firefox video views on their nightly channel rapidly rose to 20% of all video plays just before YouTube paused their AV1 rollout. Would be interested to see where that's gone since.

Instagram already uses a software decoder for VP9 on Android ( a version of libvpx surprisingly) so switching to dav1d and AV1 for popular content isn't totally unbelievable even before hardware decoders are widespread. (I'm not sure if AV1 would be much better in terms of bitrate than VP9 for their user generated content at low bitrates, but if SVT and dav1d are sufficiently better than libvpx then it would actually save them time and energy to upgrade.

I'd love to see a real world comparison of watching something like Breaking Bad on a phone on a metered connection. What are realistic bitrates for these users, if you can get a 30% bitrate saving just from synthetic film grain and AV1's tools appear to work better at lower bitrates how much does the software decoding actually cost you? Once you factor in network savings is it actually noticeable against the baseline of having the screen on? What about in the download scenario? Is it worth the battery hit to see 5 more episodes on your monthly bandwidth allowance?

Last edited by dapperdan; 27th October 2019 at 14:23.
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Old 27th October 2019, 17:38   #1877  |  Link
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I wonder why dav1d developers have dedicated time to optimize for SSE2. Isn't SSSE3 already old enough? AMD has catched up and implemented SSSE3 in 2011. Even outdated Core 2 Duo has SSSE3.

While 10 bits decoding has literally zero optimizations till moment.

P.S. Few years ago I have tested 10 years old laptop with Pentium T4200 (SSSE3) which now rests unused. It could barely play Youtube VP9 720p videos while still dropped some frames, leave alone AV1 with its 3x complexity.
AV1 would be actually a downgrade for this kind of hardware (from VP9 720p to AV1 360/480p). And we're talking about CPU with SSSE3.

Last edited by IgorC; 27th October 2019 at 18:58.
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Old 27th October 2019, 19:02   #1878  |  Link
birdie
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Originally Posted by Mr_Khyron View Post
https://code.videolan.org/videolan/d...releases#0.5.1



http://download.opencontent.netflix....ix=AV1/Sparks/
Netflix posted new AV1 samples with and without film grain in 540p, 1080p and 2160p
Neither mpv, nor ffplay can open these *.obu files. Any ideas how one can play them?
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Old 27th October 2019, 19:20   #1879  |  Link
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Mux to mkv using mkvmerge first.
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:43   #1880  |  Link
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dav1ds AVX2 is fine. If you want to properly compare SSSE3 vs AVX2, then you need to look at Single Threaded benchmarks. Multi-Threading is often limited in scaling, where such differences can "hide".
But you should also not expect twice the performance from AVX2, since once you optimize everything possible with SSSE3/AVX2, the remaining parts that cannot be optimized so easily will impact the performance the most.
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