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Old 8th December 2016, 11:37   #41281  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I decided to make some comparisons where I could reference the original RGB, it is so hard to decide how it should look.
Really need some animated or real world content shot in 4:4:4..

It's easier to pick a winner when there's just one color like in above scenario but it may just be that more times than not NGU very high is the most accurate.
Some extra tests between the top contenders.

Super-xbr 100 AR vs NGU low
NGU Low vs NGU med
NGU med vs NGU high
NGU high vs NGU very high
NGU low vs NGU very high

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheElix View Post
Seems like for quality chroma upscaling the priority should be like this: NGU Very High > NGU High > NGU Med > NGU Low (?) > Super-XBR 100 AR > followed by everything else.
NNEDI3 32 is quite nice and IMO looks better than NGU low but it's considerably more demanding at least on this HD4000, it's more demanding than NGU very high which makes it hard to recommend.
One wonders if perhaps it's time for NNEDI3 to retire from chroma duties.. That asks for one more I guess..

NNEDI3 32 neurons vs NGU very high

Last edited by ryrynz; 8th December 2016 at 11:43.
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Old 8th December 2016, 13:47   #41282  |  Link
Damien147
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
You can do that generally once you have profiles set up.
I might check that if it happens again.
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Old 8th December 2016, 14:11   #41283  |  Link
StinDaWg
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The real world impact to any of those chroma comparisons is so close to nothing/placebo it's barely even worth discussing.

As madshi has said a million times, luma is way more noticeable/important.
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Old 8th December 2016, 15:13   #41284  |  Link
Werewolfy
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@madshi
I just wanted to say that NGU for 1080p --> 2160p is awesome! I used Jinc for upscaling because I found it more natural than NNEDI3 and I was limited to 32 neurons. But now I use NGU, it's very natural, sharp and I can use the high preset. The picture is so pristine with this upscaler, it's actually the first time that I can easily see the difference on almost every scenes. I don't know how you did it but you really did a great job with this upscaler, it totally beats NNEDI3 + SR with high quality sources.

The only downside is with 480p anime. To be fair, NGU is more faithful to the source than NNEDI3 but it REALLY doesn't like mosquito noise. I use NNEDI3 256 neurons + SR1 on this type of content and for the moment I will stick with it. NNEDI3 hides these kind of artefacts very well, the reason why I use only SR1 is because anything higher will show again these artefacs like NGU. This week-end I will try 720p anime to see what NGU does.

But I will say it again, NGU is unbeatable with high quality sources!

I will also test the new UI this week-end.
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Last edited by Werewolfy; 9th December 2016 at 10:16.
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Old 8th December 2016, 15:27   #41285  |  Link
LoKi128
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Why can't the chroma upscaling algorithm be used beyond the initial conversion to 4:4:4? For example with my settings, it'll upscale chroma initially with ReconSharp, then upscale luma with NGU-veryHigh and the chroma again but now with NGU-med. Couldnt ReconSharp (or any of the initial-chroma-only scalers) be used for the second scaling step as well?

Is it just not optimized for scenarios beyond 4:2:0 -> 4:4:4? However, wouldn't it just be the same scenario as the initial conversion, having a chroma image that is exactly half the luma image if a doubling algo is used, like NGU, NNEDI or SuperXBR?
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Old 8th December 2016, 15:56   #41286  |  Link
Q-the-STORM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoKi128 View Post
Why can't the chroma upscaling algorithm be used beyond the initial conversion to 4:4:4?
Reconstruction uses luma information to be more accurate than a regular upscaler...
so using it past original luma resolution, doesn't make much sense, since upscaled luma is just as accurate as upscaled chroma...
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:09   #41287  |  Link
HillieSan
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The new AMD Crimon Relive drivers do not boost NGU on my RX 480. Performance is the same as with the previous drivers. The drivers are buggy. I have to restart my receiver otherwise it does not find a sound device, At boot time I get collored noise for a few second before it goes to desktop.
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:54   #41288  |  Link
ShiftyFella
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I'm late to the party, jumped from 90.24 to 91.4, didn't read much of the previous discussions. My biggest gripe is why I can't have nice things? Why doubling\quadrupling options are so limited all of sudden when it comes to NNEDI3? http://i.imgur.com/tK8AUVs.png before I could easily use 256->128 for luma and 32->32 or 64->32 for chroma with no problem. I would like my options back, as 16 neurons for chroma sometimes produces glitches or color artifacts that 32 never has, so I would like to avoid 16 neurons and impact on performance of 32 vs 16 is negligible. Another thing is setting very high for chroma doubling becomes unavailable when you drop to 32 neurons for luma and you have to stay with 16 neurons or drop down to bicubic60, old options and behavior was better IMO

Played a bit with NGU high, I like how sharp it is but for low res\bitrate I still prefer NNEDI3 but need to do more testing to decide. I'm not so thrilled with NGU low, NNEDI3 at 32 or superxbr with SR looks better for all content. Performance vs NNEDI3 is amazing tho. On my 290x difference in performance of Superxbr vs NGU low is there, on your typical resolutions gap is not really noticeable but if you're like me, who likes to use SS with 4k content on 1440p screen, difference becomes more apparent that superxbr is faster and actually can be usable. I'm happy that superxbr is still around as low power\impact option, I miss XBR AB:'(

720p doubled to 1440p:
NGU high for chroma\luma is 11ms
NNEDI3 64 for luma and 32 for chroma is 20ms
Superxbr 5ms with SR@3 9ms

1080p SS doubled and scaled down with SSIM1D to 1440p:
NGU high\high is 25ms
NNEDI3 64\32 is 43ms and 27ms for NNEDI3 32\16
Superxbr 11ms with SR@3 20ms

SuperXBR vs NGU low:
1080p doubled -> 1440p
surepxbr: http://i.imgur.com/JKXyjQc.png
ngu low: http://i.imgur.com/0o3yBjc.png

2160p doubled -> 1440p
superxbr: http://i.imgur.com/E86Ow7D.png
ngu low: http://i.imgur.com/7Q8LOly.png

Last edited by ShiftyFella; 8th December 2016 at 17:07.
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:43   #41289  |  Link
Backflash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HillieSan View Post
The new AMD Crimson Relive drivers do not boost NGU on my RX 480. Performance is the same as with the previous drivers. The drivers are buggy. I have to restart my receiver otherwise it does not find a sound device, At boot time I get colored noise for a few second before it goes to desktop.
Are you running audio through HDMI? I'd get separate device for that. Have no noise on boot, it seems it doesn't like your receiver. Do you have same issue if you try to connect it directly to TV?

No changes to MadVR whatsoever on my end, at least with current things I have, I think NGU has slightly(1-3ms) lower render time for 10bit 1080p but it's been a while since I tried it extensively before new drivers, just launched to look at timings. Might be wrong there.
Primary change is purely for dx11/12 multi/single threaded performance(around +20% in synthetic).
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:51   #41290  |  Link
Damien147
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....yep,it happened again.I am using NGU med for everything but for the specific resolution (3840x1600) I have to use jinc to upscale to 4096x2160.I checked the guide but I failed.Can you help me what to type/do with the profiles?
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Old 8th December 2016, 18:02   #41291  |  Link
HillieSan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backflash View Post
Are you running audio through HDMI? I'd get separate device for that. Have no noise on boot, it seems it doesn't like your receiver. Do you have same issue if you try to connect it directly to TV?

No changes to MadVR whatsoever on my end, at least with current things I have, I think NGU has slightly(1-3ms) lower render time for 10bit 1080p but it's been a while since I tried it extensively before new drivers, just launched to look at timings. Might be wrong there.
Primary change is purely for dx11/12 multi/single threaded performance(around +20% in synthetic).
I had no issues with the previous drivers. I use a long cable (12 meters) to the receiver. If I turn on the receiver after turning on the HTPC all is fine, but not the other way around. I think the new HDMI cable analyser is causing this issue. Can I turn it off?
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Old 8th December 2016, 18:17   #41292  |  Link
huhn
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Why can't the chroma upscaling algorithm be used beyond the initial conversion to 4:4:4? For example with my settings, it'll upscale chroma initially with ReconSharp, then upscale luma with NGU-veryHigh and the chroma again but now with NGU-med. Couldnt ReconSharp (or any of the initial-chroma-only scalers) be used for the second scaling step as well?

Is it just not optimized for scenarios beyond 4:2:0 -> 4:4:4? However, wouldn't it just be the same scenario as the initial conversion, having a chroma image that is exactly half the luma image if a doubling algo is used, like NGU, NNEDI or SuperXBR?
doubling chroma is pretty much placebo in it self after reaching 4:4:4. so this is a huge waste of processing power.

and that's what i don't get with these new doubling settings.
the change was made to avoid bad settings like chroma doubling but with default settings using NGU med for chroma doubling when NGU very high is used and don't let me start about quadruple chroma super sampling... it is doing this with default settings.

activate 200% super sampling is disabled.

always super sample shouldn't be used. at the moment NGU will super sample when upscaling by a couple of pixels.

NGU very high is using NGU low for chroma quadrupling when super sampling 720p to 2880p while scaling to 2160. changing chroma from "let madVR decide" to "normal" will HALVE the rendertimes. NGU chroma doubling shouldn't be used with default settings and that never ever.
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Old 8th December 2016, 19:18   #41293  |  Link
Damien147
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As said earlier I want to use jinc for a specific resolution and for everything else NGU med.I created 2 profiles,first one is jinc and second is NGU med.I typed this in profiles auto select rules:

Code:
if (srcWidth <= 3840) and (srcHeight <= 1600) "Profile 1"
else "Profile 2"
Nothing happens,can you guys correct me?
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Old 8th December 2016, 19:32   #41294  |  Link
har3inger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I do like Recon Soft with SR too, does SR help with the bleed through in this example?
I find that SR2 is the minimum strength you need to fix those "bleed" problems the reconstruction/bilateral scalers face. However, sometimes the "bleed" is what cleans up edges so nicely in other cases, where you want to remove very thick, dark, bloaty lines in the chroma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien147 View Post
As said earlier I want to use jinc for a specific resolution and for everything else NGU med.I created 2 profiles,first one is jinc and second is NGU med.I typed this in profiles auto select rules:

Code:
if (srcWidth <= 3840) and (srcHeight <= 1600) "Profile 1"
else "Profile 2"
Nothing happens,can you guys correct me?

Sometimes madvr doesn't like <= or >= very much in my experience. Try using < 3841 and <1601. Else, if you have a green checkmark, it should select the profiles correctly.

Last edited by har3inger; 8th December 2016 at 19:35.
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Old 8th December 2016, 20:11   #41295  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien147 View Post
As said earlier I want to use jinc for a specific resolution and for everything else NGU med.I created 2 profiles,first one is jinc and second is NGU med.I typed this in profiles auto select rules:

Code:
if (srcWidth <= 3840) and (srcHeight <= 1600) "Profile 1"
else "Profile 2"
Nothing happens,can you guys correct me?
Anytime the resolution is above 3840x1600 in either dimension madVR should use Profile 2. This probably isn't what you want so this might be better:
Code:
if (srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight <= 1088) "Profile 1"
else "Profile 2"
Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Sometimes madvr doesn't like <= or >= very much in my experience. Try using < 3841 and <1601. Else, if you have a green checkmark, it should select the profiles correctly.
This is true for refresh rates and frame rates but not for resolutions, in my experiance. With resolution <= has always worked perfectly for me.
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Old 8th December 2016, 20:13   #41296  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
The real world impact to any of those chroma comparisons is so close to nothing/placebo it's barely even worth discussing.

As madshi has said a million times, luma is way more noticeable/important.
Jesus. Might as well say that the real world impact of ANY of madVR's settings are close to nothing/placebo if that's the case.. you can quite clearly see the changes here even without enlargement. But sure, let's just remove all the chroma options.. it's not important, why have choices for this.. it's barely worth discussing. Madshi I vote to remove everything but reconstruction soft!

Also I don't even know why you bothered to post
Maybe your memory isn't too good, most of us have been here since 09/10, I think we know what we're doing.
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Old 8th December 2016, 20:19   #41297  |  Link
Damien147
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Tried what you said but same result,I have a green checkmark both ways but nothing happens.I don't know if I have to add something.
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Old 8th December 2016, 20:20   #41298  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
The real world impact to any of those chroma comparisons is so close to nothing/placebo it's barely even worth discussing.
At least, they took time to make decent screenshots comparison, which is highly respectable.
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Old 8th December 2016, 20:34   #41299  |  Link
Damien147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Code:
if (srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight <= 1088) "Profile 1"
else "Profile 2"
That worked but backwards,had to put ngu on profile 1 and jinc on profile 2.I will leave it like that.Thank you both guys.
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Old 8th December 2016, 21:00   #41300  |  Link
kalston
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Thanks for those chroma upscaling examples and the sample! Using this sample I think I like NGU low a lot on my current setup. Fast and clean.
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