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Old 24th March 2016, 23:29   #37121  |  Link
Mistar Muffin
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Is there a way to quickly toggle 3D mode? In many cases I only have the MVC copy ripped with MakeMKV when it is the same as the AVC copy when viewed in 2D. Inside Out is a example where I could not see a difference in the 2D disc and the 3D disc. I usually don't want to play back these files in stereo but occasionally do when the mood strikes. Is there a keyboard shortcut or anything that I am missing? This really isn't a "set it and forget it" setting IMO and should have a way to quickly toggle depending on the situation.

So glad to have a freeware solution for MVC. Thanks for all your work.
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Last edited by Mistar Muffin; 24th March 2016 at 23:38.
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Old 24th March 2016, 23:30   #37122  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you compare these 2 images, do you really think they show a "similar end effect"? I sure hope not. To my eyes image 1) looks *significantly* better than image 2). It looks more detailed, more natural and more "in focus". Of course that's only my personal opinion. Do you disagree?
I already did compare those and 0.5 was too high. Could you please upload AS @ 0.1, 0.2 & 0.3 for comparison? Thanks.
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Old 24th March 2016, 23:38   #37123  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not sure if AR is needed for SuperRes, either.
I really don't think it is and my quick tests today didn't change my mind but I'll be running more tests as ideally AR and AB shouldn't be used in every section I think......too much of a good thing..

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Out of the 3 places where you can use Anti-Bloating (sharpening, SuperRes and SSIM downscaling) you've picked the one where I think the benefit is most questionable. When I did a quick test with SuperRes Anti-Bloating myself, I wasn't sure myself whether I thought it was any good or not. While I'm very sure it's useful for both sharpening and SSIM downscaling (although some users seem to disagree in regards to SSIM).
I guess it's all a matter of not oversharpening upscaling and/or downscaling, trying to find a balance in order to avoid a sharpness/AB counterproductive process and SR is based on unsharp masking IIRC/AFAIC so it would make sense to (slightly) antibloat SR in order not to over-antibloat SSIM downscaling, but then again maybe it doesn't matter where exactly you antibloat hah and it might just be that the sharper the picture fed to SSIM the better, will be running more tests tomorrow.
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Old 24th March 2016, 23:45   #37124  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistar Muffin View Post
Is there a way to quickly toggle 3D mode? In many cases I only have the MVC copy ripped with MakeMKV when it is the same as the AVC copy when viewed in 2D. Inside Out is a example where I could not see a difference in the 2D disc and the 3D disc (when viewed in 2D). I usually don't want to play back these files in stereo but occasionally do when the mood strikes. Is there a keyboard shortcut or anything that I am missing? This really isn't a "set it and forget it" setting IMO and should have a way to quickly toggle depending on the situation.
I suppose you could setup a profile which has 3D disabled and one which has it enabled in the madVR settings, and assign a keyboard shortcut to them.

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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
I already did compare those and 0.5 was too high. Could you please upload AS @ 0.1, 0.2 & 0.3 for comparison? Thanks.
If you look e.g. at the trees at the top quarter of the image, the 0.5 screenshot is already much softer than the 1.5+AB screenshot. So how can an even lower value than 0.5 make the image get nearer to 1.5+AB?

Anyway, the screenshot comparison contains the original untouched frame, so it's easy enough for you to compare yourself with AS @ 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3.
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Old 24th March 2016, 23:47   #37125  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
SR is based on unsharp masking IIRC/AFAIC
Not at all, actually.
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Old 24th March 2016, 23:51   #37126  |  Link
fedpul
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Is it a new problem with v0.90.16? Or does this occur with all madVR builds? Which GPU and OS are you using? It's possible that your GPU simply doesn't allow allocating such big textures. Is your GPU very old, maybe?
Hi madshi. It is not a new problem, I have just tested 90.15 and it is present too. My GPU is a GTX 970 so I don't think it could be a GPU problem. I'm using Windows 7 SP1 up to date.
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Old 24th March 2016, 23:51   #37127  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Not at all, actually.
OK my bad, it's just that Shiandow said "Improve guess by: Softening the image, Subtracting differences with the original image, Sharpening" and it sure sounds/looks like unsharp masking to me

Anyway if AB makes sense to you for sharpening, I think it would also be useful for SR as SR is definitely sharpening but then again maybe it's pointless to AB both SSIM and SR.
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Old 24th March 2016, 23:53   #37128  |  Link
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Yeah, not sure about SuperRes AB, either.
Could you elaborate on your personal feelings what SR actually does? In a way I have always thought about it as a sort final picture enhancer that I can count on to make the picture to be closer to the so called ground truth, even if I may not see the effects every frame of every possible video. Of course I can see, especially on animated content, if it brings unwanted artifacts, but maybe on a sort of theoretical level? For example, do you use it always at some strength? And yes, I have read the technical explanation.

[edit]

My point here being, what are the enhancements SR really requires for it to be better?

Last edited by YxP; 24th March 2016 at 23:56.
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Old 25th March 2016, 00:01   #37129  |  Link
RainyDog
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Thanks for all the great new updates madshi.

One thing I've noticed is that anti-bloating has a positive effect on reigning in the brightness boosting of adaptive sharpen. On a black level setting test pattern, adaptive sharpen by itself reveals IRE 16 on a properly calibrated display. But with anti-bloating enabled the image is slightly darker so only 17 and above flash which is how it should be of course.

Adaptive sharpen plus anti-bloating is looking like it might be a formidable combination actually. AS maxed out at 3.0 combined with 150% AB might even be viable you know... Though more testing is probably needed to confirm that before we get too carried away
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Old 25th March 2016, 00:06   #37130  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you look e.g. at the trees at the top quarter of the image, the 0.5 screenshot is already much softer than the 1.5+AB screenshot. So how can an even lower value than 0.5 make the image get nearer to 1.5+AB?

Anyway, the screenshot comparison contains the original untouched frame, so it's easy enough for you to compare yourself with AS @ 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3.
I think you're getting mixed up or something is wrong, because AS5.png (AS 0.5) is clearly sharper than AS15_AB100.png

Regarding anti-bloating with SSIM 2D @ 100% I think I'd prefer to keep it disabled. I could understand people perhaps wanting to enable 25 or 50% though.. beyond that you're getting similar results to just running SSIM at lower values. High frequency stuff is nice to a point. SO while I may not be using it I can see where it might be considered useful.

Last edited by ryrynz; 25th March 2016 at 01:35.
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Old 25th March 2016, 00:11   #37131  |  Link
Georgel
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Yeah, extreme values on edge thinning and edge sharpening and anti bloat work especially well with anime. VERY GOOD.

With real life content, the final image is a bit over-smooth, and these values are not the best defaults when watching a movie or a video with people. But with anime, it is like those algorithms redefine all the qualities of the image.

Those algorithms have more value than 4K has on games these days.

Then again, maybe most madVR users use a bit lower values, but I showed madVR to other anime fans, and all of them started using madVR the next moment for all anime. This all have become a golden thing after edge thinning has been introduced.

Thanks!
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Old 25th March 2016, 00:38   #37132  |  Link
fedpul
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Hi madshi. It is not a new problem, I have just tested 90.15 and it is present too. My GPU is a GTX 970 so I don't think it could be a GPU problem. I'm using Windows 7 SP1 up to date.
I found the problem, big queues again. Reset settings to default and then I start changing settings one to one and the crash was caused by the queues being set to max. It works well at default settings. Sorry for the report.
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Old 25th March 2016, 00:39   #37133  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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So what does anti-bloating actually do?

UPDATE: Blurs to prevent over sharpening. OK. Pretty hard to spot anyway.

Last edited by AngelGraves13; 25th March 2016 at 01:23.
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Old 25th March 2016, 01:08   #37134  |  Link
ryrynz
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Yeah, extreme values on edge thinning and edge sharpening and anti bloat work especially well with anime. VERY GOOD.
While it affects lines well for anime it's an edge thinner so it works on a lot of background elements you wouldn't want sharpened. I notice it especially on already thin things like bridge ropes etc.
This is why I have it working in tandem with Awarpsharp2 and line darkening in Avisynth, high level line thinning in anime can look pretty unnatural (super sharp & thin on some things and not on others)
Until we get line thinning/darkening it's the best we've got in madVR, just look at more than just the thick lines before you settle on a edge thinning value.

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So what does anti-bloating actually do?
Should read madshi's posts..

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2) The new anti-bloating tries to concentrate sharpening on higher frequencies and to remove lower frequencies. I like the look that produces, but your mileage may vary.
In other words, is softening certain high frequency elements of the picture. Basically removing that over sharpened or over processed look.

Last edited by ryrynz; 25th March 2016 at 02:27.
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Old 25th March 2016, 01:47   #37135  |  Link
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Instead of saying you have the same problem, can you please describe your own problem in detail? And if it depends on the madVR version, could you please try to find out which exact madVR version introduced the problem for you? You can find all old madVR builds for download here:

http://www.videohelp.com/software/ma...sions#download
Yes, sorry madshi, in my case I think it was a "false alarm" as I was experimenting with various settings (LAV and madvr) to find which is the best for my configuration (Q9650@3,6ghz gtx970 MPC-HC x64) and I guess that I had NNEDI3 img doubing / supersampling which killed the performance..thats it.. now I'm using these settings and everything is smooth with great picture quality and no dropped frames during playback (using mostly 1080p contents on a 1920x1200 res monitor)...

LAV Video:
DXVA2 copy-back GTX970 / Random dithering / No software deinterlacing

madvr:
chroma: super-xbr 100 AR SuperRes@3
img downscaling: SSIM 2D@100% AR LL
img doubling: double luma & chroma / always - if upscaling is needed / super-xbr@100
img upscaling: Jinc AR
upscaling refinement: SuperRes@1 LL AR / refine img only once...

artifact removal: medium / high

smooth motion off
dithering ED 1 / colored noise / change dither for every frame
trade quality.. all unchecked

Do you think these settings I'm using are fine for my configuration? As I'm no expert, answers and suggestions from anybody are welcome....Thanks
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Old 25th March 2016, 03:42   #37136  |  Link
Warner306
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Post removed. New comparison added in a latter post.

Last edited by Warner306; 28th March 2016 at 07:51.
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Old 25th March 2016, 04:10   #37137  |  Link
ryrynz
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Does anti-bloating not make the image appear more natural?
I think so, but this does depending on the strength of the sharpening wand you're applying to the image.

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Perhaps the strength used for anti-bloating could be reduced slightly to reduce some of the blurring?
Just use 75/50/25?
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Old 25th March 2016, 04:15   #37138  |  Link
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b) Do you consider the anti-bloating and anti-ringing options useful for SuperRes? I think anti-bloating might not be beneficial here, but I'd like to hear your opinion. Do you see any benefit in the anti-ringing option? SuperRes already didn't ring that much, so I wonder if the separate anti-ringing post processing option is worthwhile in your opinion or not?
Nope, not either. SuperRes is different in that it digs into the picture and brings out real detail. I can't speak for the other refinements, but what SuperRes does puts it in a class of its own.
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Old 25th March 2016, 05:12   #37139  |  Link
Warner306
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b) Do you consider the anti-bloating and anti-ringing options useful for SuperRes? I think anti-bloating might not be beneficial here, but I'd like to hear your opinion. Do you see any benefit in the anti-ringing option? SuperRes already didn't ring that much, so I wonder if the separate anti-ringing post processing option is worthwhile in your opinion or not?
Nope, not either. SuperRes is different in that it digs into the picture and brings out real detail. I can't speak for the other refinements, but what SuperRes does puts it in a class of its own.
Did you look at the image comparison two posts above? SuperRes can be harsh at high values and there is the potential to oversharpen.

I think there is a level of anti-bloating that might be beneficial.
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Old 25th March 2016, 05:23   #37140  |  Link
JarrettH
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Yeah, I checked those out. It seems to deaden the picture and take some of the all important catch light out of the eyes. I only use a value of 3 myself. Anyway, it will be adjustable what ever madshi decides
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