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28th May 2015, 17:16 | #30481 | Link | ||
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Honestly it's just grainier and I can't see an improvement. The grain is a lot stronger than dithering here. I've done a lot of comparisons. Shiandow's algo does a very good job at debanding but the high preset blurs less details... Well it's not that simple. Shiandow's algo preserves more the shape of the original picture but blurs the details. [img=http://s5.postimg.org/b2buwdqpz/high5008.png] Power : 0.60 - margin : 0.30 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/g67pybr7r/shi5060030.png] Power : 0.80 - margin : 0.30 [img=http://s5.postimg.org/6cqilip3b/shi5080030.png] But if I use high values it can beat sometimes the high preset. [img=http://s5.postimg.org/inaae3wcn/high3008.png] 0.60-0.30 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/5zuj1lhfr/shi3060030.png] 0.80-0.50 [img=http://s5.postimg.org/w9k6y4sqv/shi3080050.png] It's difficult to choose because they don't act the same way, they both have pros and cons... For example, I think it's impossible to set them at the same level of details. Personnaly I think I still prefer the high prest because you have to use high values with Shiandow's algo to beat it and when you do that, details become too blurry to my taste. Actually, I was wrong they are mostly the same : 19.80ms vs 19.60ms but before I had for example 1 frame drop every 7 hours and now it's more like 1 frame drop every 1 day. It's just the counter, I didn't experience any frame dropped. By the way, I have a Geforce GTX 970. Quote:
At 0.08 I don't think that details are lost but the debanding is still stronger than with the old high preset. Old high preset : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/as4cd1c3r/oldhigh5.png] [img=http://s5.postimg.org/fs1skzhqf/oldhigh3.png] Maxangle at 0.10 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/qzamt3j47/high5010.png] [img=http://s5.postimg.org/kkblwfcef/high3010.png] Maxangle at 0.08 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/b2buwdqpz/high5008.png] [img=http://s5.postimg.org/inaae3wcn/high3008.png]
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Windows 8.1 and 10 x64 - Intel Core i5-4670K (4.2 GHz) - 8 GB DDR3 - MSI Geforce GTX 1080 8 GB - Sony KD-55A1 - Denon AVR-X3600H Last edited by Werewolfy; 28th May 2015 at 20:06. |
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28th May 2015, 17:38 | #30482 | Link | |
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Is there an easy way to compare the effects of each chroma scaler, like particular images that make it easier to compare what works best for system and or preferences? I was using Lanczos before because I cannot run NEDDI3 AND use SVP at the same time as it makes my system lag but lately I have been debating the SVP artifacts vs the inherent issues with non "smoothing" the movies so I have been watching without SVP as well and at that time, I decided to go back to NEDDI32 but I never did any real tests to see which one was best. Thanks again! |
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28th May 2015, 17:50 | #30483 | Link | ||
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The issue is that I just don't have much in the way of 4K test patterns.
That's why I'm hesitant to see such a change made right now. But as I said: if this only applies to downscaling, and using linear light downscaling forces the old behavior anyway, I don't really have any objections. It seems like a smart way to improve performance of 4K playback on non-4K displays. Quote:
Here's an old example from when anti-ringing was first introduced. On the left is Lanczos 3/AR On the right is Lanczos 8/AR You can see that while the anti-ringing filter removes most of the ringing from Lanczos 8, it does not remove the distortion that the ringing has introduced on the right edge of that red circle. We have come a long way since then however. NNEDI3 in particular makes a huge difference with that low resolution, low quality source. Lanczos3 AR on top, NNEDI3 on the bottom. Sure it can look a little "smoothed over" or artificial in places, but that's just the nature of the source being so low quality. Though NNEDI3 and other options such as debanding have been in there for quite some time now, it still impresses me with just how much of an improvement madVR can make to low quality, low resolution sources. Quote:
It seems that you need DisplayPort (and possibly DVI?) to select a 10-bit output there. However madVR seems to be able to output 10-bit over HDMI via the DX11 presentation path if your display supports it, even though NVIDIA do not make it available via the Control Panel. |
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28th May 2015, 18:20 | #30485 | Link | ||
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the best way to find this out is reading the EDID. Quote:
it's way easier to test with AMD cards thanks to the disabling dither trick. AMD is for sure dithering 10 bit input to 8 bit output if 8 bit is the only possibility or is selected. |
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28th May 2015, 18:31 | #30486 | Link | |
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Tonight I will try 24Hz as someone told me they get the 10bcp option at 24Hz but not at 60Hz for some odd reason. I appreciate your help. there is a TON to learn for me yet. |
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28th May 2015, 19:00 | #30487 | Link | |
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I asked ToastyX (the developer of CRU) about Nvidia a while ago:
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28th May 2015, 19:41 | #30489 | Link |
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i did the test with nvidia and nvidia is for 100% dithering.
first test. 6 bit tn asus vg248qe. nvidia can only send 8 bit to this screen. 8 bit madVR without dithering shows a ton of banding. d3d11 10 bit FSE doesn't show banding. TV with 12 bit input support disabled madVR dithering. 8 bit window mode banding. d3d11 10 bit FSE 12 bit nvidia no banding d3d11 10 bit FSE 8 bit nvidia no banding yes 100% |
28th May 2015, 20:09 | #30490 | Link | |
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http://home.halden.net/mordor/madvr.jpg However I figured out what the problem was. I had to extract the two folders from the .zip as well (legal stuff and developers), until now I've not bothered about extracting those. Now it works fine. I didn't think madvr needed anything from those folders to function. Thanks.
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28th May 2015, 21:09 | #30491 | Link | ||||
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I remember ppl complaining about the random previous frames a while ago but I was on XP at the time so I didn't pay much attention. I take it that the black frame without Aero and random previous frames wirh Aero are known non-urgent cosmetical problems? |
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28th May 2015, 21:11 | #30492 | Link |
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I don't know if it's intended or not, but the OSD show D3D9 fullscreen windowed mode even though I checked "use Direct3D 11 for presentation".
I haven't checked "present a frame for every sync" (it's for exclusive mode if I remember correctly) and native display bitdepth is 8 bit.
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28th May 2015, 21:16 | #30493 | Link | |||||||||||
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I've tried to find any API that would tell me whether the GPU actually outputs 10bit or not, but I've not found anything, at least not nothing official GPU independent from Microsoft. I can see that Direct3D11 actually tells the GPU driver to output 10bit, and the driver accepts it, although I know for a fact that my display doesn't support 10bit. So basically it's a black box and I don't know what the GPU is doing with my 10bit output... It's good that we have the dither registry tweaks for AMD. Wish we had something like that for NVidia and Intel, too. Quote:
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28th May 2015, 21:24 | #30494 | Link | |
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I'm not sure Windows 7 platform update is installed. Is it the KB2670838 update ? If it is, then yes I haven't installed it yet. EDIT : Yep, it was this update. It's ok now. Thanks.
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iiyama prolite xb2483hsu 1080p60 Gamma=2.25 - Intel Core i3-2100 3.10GHz - AMD Radeon HD 6850, RGB 4:4:4 Full range - MPC-HC + XYSubFilter + madVR Last edited by Vyral; 28th May 2015 at 21:46. |
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28th May 2015, 21:37 | #30495 | Link | |
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Basically I get a black frame for quite a while during every transition and with Aero enabled I get a random frame from the movie between the black frames, which is a lot more annoying So on W8 you do get the slow updating black frame but no previous frame from the movie? The latter comes with Aero on W7SP1, I would enjoy a clear confirmation whether upgrading to W8/W10 would greet me with forced previous frames during transitions as Aero can't be disabled anymore. |
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28th May 2015, 21:47 | #30497 | Link | ||
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How high are your present numbers exactly? Anything lower than 1ms should be ok. |
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28th May 2015, 22:25 | #30499 | Link | |
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I will have a look into it, but from some initial testing it doesn't seem to be problematic with all of the scaling/processing options we have available to us now. Edit: Just to be clear though, if chroma is being upscaled, it is always being upscaled 2x, yes? (e.g. 720p > 1080p) I did manage to get some testing done at 4K (though not with proper test patterns) but my system doesn't really handle it that well. After changing the CPU priority of the player and adjusting the queue sizes, I was able to get smooth 4K video playback though. I set up some new profiles to change the dither algorithm from ordered dither to random dither at 4K, and some of the other render/queue/trade quality for performance options had to be adjusted as well, which worked great. I'm very happy with how flexible the profile system is. This had me wondering if there was a specific reason that some settings are locked out of profiles. For example, I had to drop the present queue size down to 6 from 8 for 4K, and I'd prefer to set that with a profile instead of it being set globally. And though it's not specific to 4K playback, I'd really like to set up profiles that change the calibration and color & gamma settings based on the source content. I'd like to use 2.40 gamma for 480/576/1080p content (movies) and 2.20 gamma for all other source resolutions. That's a setting I find myself changing quite often depending on the source content, so it would be very convenient to have that switch automatically. Last edited by 6233638; 28th May 2015 at 22:32. |
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Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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