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Old 28th May 2015, 17:16   #30481  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
Glad it's better now. For that previous test picture you might want to try setting "margin" to a high value (like 0.5 or 1.0) that might work better for lower quality sources, it shouldn't be used for high quality sources though.

Shame that the grain is too strong, in theory it should add exactly as much grain as was removed by the banding algorithm (if the original was dithered). Did the grain improve the image at all, or was it just "grainier"?
Yes I played with the settings and post my opinion just below (I take a lot of screenshots but I didn't post all of them

Honestly it's just grainier and I can't see an improvement. The grain is a lot stronger than dithering here.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Looking forward to the results of your further tests!
I've done a lot of comparisons. Shiandow's algo does a very good job at debanding but the high preset blurs less details... Well it's not that simple. Shiandow's algo preserves more the shape of the original picture but blurs the details.

[img=http://s5.postimg.org/b2buwdqpz/high5008.png]

Power : 0.60 - margin : 0.30 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/g67pybr7r/shi5060030.png]

Power : 0.80 - margin : 0.30 [img=http://s5.postimg.org/6cqilip3b/shi5080030.png]


But if I use high values it can beat sometimes the high preset.

[img=http://s5.postimg.org/inaae3wcn/high3008.png]

0.60-0.30 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/5zuj1lhfr/shi3060030.png]

0.80-0.50 [img=http://s5.postimg.org/w9k6y4sqv/shi3080050.png]


It's difficult to choose because they don't act the same way, they both have pros and cons... For example, I think it's impossible to set them at the same level of details.
Personnaly I think I still prefer the high prest because you have to use high values with Shiandow's algo to beat it and when you do that, details become too blurry to my taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How much better (roughly)? Which GPU?
Actually, I was wrong they are mostly the same : 19.80ms vs 19.60ms but before I had for example 1 frame drop every 7 hours and now it's more like 1 frame drop every 1 day. It's just the counter, I didn't experience any frame dropped. By the way, I have a Geforce GTX 970.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
My preferences haven’t changed regarding debanding algorithms. I prefer the “high” preset, with the trade quality option “don’t analyze gradient angles for debanding” selected, over the latest Shiandow’s script. Without the trade quality option selected, I see a slight blurring in the images. It may be due to stronger debanding.
Can you try to set the Maxangle at 0.10 or even 0.08?
At 0.08 I don't think that details are lost but the debanding is still stronger than with the old high preset.

Old high preset : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/as4cd1c3r/oldhigh5.png]

[img=http://s5.postimg.org/fs1skzhqf/oldhigh3.png]


Maxangle at 0.10 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/qzamt3j47/high5010.png]

[img=http://s5.postimg.org/kkblwfcef/high3010.png]


Maxangle at 0.08 : [img=http://s5.postimg.org/b2buwdqpz/high5008.png]

[img=http://s5.postimg.org/inaae3wcn/high3008.png]
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Last edited by Werewolfy; 28th May 2015 at 20:06.
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Old 28th May 2015, 17:38   #30482  |  Link
shaolin95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
madshi wants to focus on debanding effects/comparison at the moment, so he may not be to interested in answering that question for you. Chroma's SuperRes option effects the sharpness, anti-alaising, softness, and anti-ringing chroma. Most people have a hard time seeing differences. From full screen video check and uncheck it clicking apply each time to see if you can notice a difference. If you don't then you might as well leave it unchecked and save resources for other features. NNEDI3 is very resource demanding, and many people (myself included) see better performance and visual quality when they combine a lesser chroma scaler with ChromaSuperRes then they do with NNEDI3. Your opinion may be the same or differ, so experiment and make your own conclusion.
Thanks for the information.
Is there an easy way to compare the effects of each chroma scaler, like particular images that make it easier to compare what works best for system and or preferences?

I was using Lanczos before because I cannot run NEDDI3 AND use SVP at the same time as it makes my system lag but lately I have been debating the SVP artifacts vs the inherent issues with non "smoothing" the movies so I have been watching without SVP as well and at that time, I decided to go back to NEDDI32 but I never did any real tests to see which one was best.

Thanks again!
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Old 28th May 2015, 17:50   #30483  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not sure I agree. Can you show a difference in screenshots?
The issue is that I just don't have much in the way of 4K test patterns.
That's why I'm hesitant to see such a change made right now.

But as I said: if this only applies to downscaling, and using linear light downscaling forces the old behavior anyway, I don't really have any objections. It seems like a smart way to improve performance of 4K playback on non-4K displays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
To be fair, I also used Lanczos 8 quite a lot, but ONLY because we didn't have a native (fast and max. quality) and mild sharpening filter within madVR.

The results with Lanczos 8 and AR were the sharpest of them all and still relatively cheap performance-wise, without ever having to invoke NNEDI3. But it was never really used other than to just sharpen content by me.

As such, I would not really miss it though.
EDIT: madVR now has sharpening, need to retest.
Yes, I think the sharpening options do eliminate any reason that someone might try to use something like Lanczos8, which is why I am not opposed to its removal.

Here's an old example from when anti-ringing was first introduced.
On the left is Lanczos 3/AR
On the right is Lanczos 8/AR

You can see that while the anti-ringing filter removes most of the ringing from Lanczos 8, it does not remove the distortion that the ringing has introduced on the right edge of that red circle.

We have come a long way since then however. NNEDI3 in particular makes a huge difference with that low resolution, low quality source.



Lanczos3 AR on top, NNEDI3 on the bottom.
Sure it can look a little "smoothed over" or artificial in places, but that's just the nature of the source being so low quality.
Though NNEDI3 and other options such as debanding have been in there for quite some time now, it still impresses me with just how much of an improvement madVR can make to low quality, low resolution sources.

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Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
So I only get the nice smooth image with MPC/MADVR but that still leaves the question open about why it gets smooth if Nvidia Control Panel is not giving me the option for 10bcp at all.
If you are using an HDMI output, NVIDIA only seems to have 8-bit or 12-bit available via the Control Panel.
It seems that you need DisplayPort (and possibly DVI?) to select a 10-bit output there.
However madVR seems to be able to output 10-bit over HDMI via the DX11 presentation path if your display supports it, even though NVIDIA do not make it available via the Control Panel.
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Old 28th May 2015, 17:58   #30484  |  Link
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madshi,
If not copy the folder "legal stuff", an error occurs "OpenCL compiler error".
This folder is needed now?
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Old 28th May 2015, 18:20   #30485  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
If you are using an HDMI output, NVIDIA only seems to have 8-bit or 12-bit available via the Control Panel.
It seems that you need DisplayPort (and possibly DVI?) to select a 10-bit output there.
However madVR seems to be able to output 10-bit over HDMI via the DX11 presentation path if your display supports it, even though NVIDIA do not make it available via the Control Panel.
madVR isn't output anything to a screen the GPU driver is doing this.

the best way to find this out is reading the EDID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
One extra piece of information. When I do the same ramp 10 bit test with MPDN instead of MPC with MADVR, I cannot get the "banding" to show smooth even when switching to full screen in 10 bit or higher. It just looks 8 bit and clearly visible bands.
So I only get the nice smooth image with MPC/MADVR but that still leaves the question open about why it gets smooth if Nvidia Control Panel is not giving me the option for 10bcp at all.

A user just PMed me telling me he sees the 10bcp option at 24Hz but not at 60Hz. I tried yesterday at 48Hz so I will check. Perhaps somehow my project is still capable of 10bcp after all.

As a side not, this latest Nvidia driver seem to mess up the TV levels or at least it was making the projector detected Auto incorrectly after the upgrade. No other setting was changed.

In any case, more testing to come later tonight.


BTW, when in the Chroma options I am selecting the NEDDI3 32 setting but what is the SuperRes option in there supposed to do? I know it increases the performance hit but not sure what I am gaining.

Thanks and sorry for the many Qs!
you don't have an old amd card flying around didn't you?

it's way easier to test with AMD cards thanks to the disabling dither trick.

AMD is for sure dithering 10 bit input to 8 bit output if 8 bit is the only possibility or is selected.
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Old 28th May 2015, 18:31   #30486  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
If you are using an HDMI output, NVIDIA only seems to have 8-bit or 12-bit available via the Control Panel.
It seems that you need DisplayPort (and possibly DVI?) to select a 10-bit output there.
However madVR seems to be able to output 10-bit over HDMI via the DX11 presentation path if your display supports it, even though NVIDIA do not make it available via the Control Panel.
That will explain why I get the clear improvement in the ramp image when on 10bit with madvr even though Nvidia does not give me that option.
Tonight I will try 24Hz as someone told me they get the 10bcp option at 24Hz but not at 60Hz for some odd reason.

I appreciate your help. there is a TON to learn for me yet.
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Old 28th May 2015, 19:00   #30487  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ah, thanks! How about NVidia and Intel?
I asked ToastyX (the developer of CRU) about Nvidia a while ago:
Quote:
No, not in Windows. They dither in Mac OS X, but I haven't found a way to enable dithering in Windows.
He also was the one to provide the info about dithering on AMD in the first place.
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Old 28th May 2015, 19:28   #30488  |  Link
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Just a question about plasma screens. Should dithering in madvr be enabled ,even though plasmas does dithering by its own?
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Old 28th May 2015, 19:41   #30489  |  Link
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i did the test with nvidia and nvidia is for 100% dithering.

first test. 6 bit tn asus vg248qe. nvidia can only send 8 bit to this screen.

8 bit madVR without dithering shows a ton of banding.
d3d11 10 bit FSE doesn't show banding.

TV with 12 bit input support disabled madVR dithering.
8 bit window mode banding.
d3d11 10 bit FSE 12 bit nvidia no banding
d3d11 10 bit FSE 8 bit nvidia no banding

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Originally Posted by krille View Post
Just a question about plasma screens. Should dithering in madvr be enabled ,even though plasmas does dithering by its own?
yes 100%
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Old 28th May 2015, 20:09   #30490  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That doesn't look like v0.88.10 to me. Are you sure you really updated? Maybe there are more than one madVR installations on your PC? E.g. JRiver MC comes with its own installation.
It sure is 88.10.

http://home.halden.net/mordor/madvr.jpg

However I figured out what the problem was. I had to extract the two folders from the .zip as well (legal stuff and developers), until now I've not bothered about extracting those. Now it works fine. I didn't think madvr needed anything from those folders to function.

Thanks.
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:09   #30491  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't remember what you said or I said ages ago. The switching between FSE and windowed mode was improved a while ago. With Intel GPUs there are still some weird things going on for some users, when using DX11 presentation or "use a separate device for presentation". But that's limited to Intel.
Well least year this seemed to be a known issue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
So is there any way to avoid the black frames flashing during FSE/FSW transitions? This is happening whenever I want to open a context menu and that never occured on XP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I've only ever used madVR on Windows 7/8, and this has always been the case. I was not aware that XP didn't do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
XP was a bit faster and more seamless when doing FSE/FSW transitions. There's nothing we can do about that. Well, maybe I could find a way (or maybe not), but I consider that a cosmetical problem and as such not very important at the moment.
Using 88.10 and the 13.12 drivers I do get a pretty long black frame flash when rolling DX9 FSE/FSW or DX9 FS/windowed with Aero disabled in W7SP1 and if I enable the latter I randomly get previous frames from the movie or black frames.

I remember ppl complaining about the random previous frames a while ago but I was on XP at the time so I didn't pay much attention.

I take it that the black frame without Aero and random previous frames wirh Aero are known non-urgent cosmetical problems?
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:11   #30492  |  Link
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I don't know if it's intended or not, but the OSD show D3D9 fullscreen windowed mode even though I checked "use Direct3D 11 for presentation".
I haven't checked "present a frame for every sync" (it's for exclusive mode if I remember correctly) and native display bitdepth is 8 bit.
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:16   #30493  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Budtz View Post
Im experiancing a short black screen when switching from FSE to windowed mode in mpchc in d11 mode. It switches instantly in d9 mode. Is this intended?
Every GPU/driver behaves differently there. I've done my best to make the switch as fast as possible. It should be faster with 8bit output compared to 10bit. But there's probably nothing I can do to make it faster than it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Siso View Post
Same here, along with the high present stats in D3D11 windowed mode.
If you have high present stats, try lowering the number of prepresented frames.

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Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
I've done a lot of comparisons. Shiandow's algo does a very good job at debanding but the high preset blurs less details... Well it's not that simple. Shiandow's algo preserves more the shape of the original picture but blurs the details.

But if I use high values it can beat sometimes the high preset.

It's difficult to choose because they don't act the same way, they both have pros and cons... For example, I think it's impossible to set them at the same level of details.
Personnaly I think I still prefer the high prest because you have to use high values with Shiandow's algo to beat it and when you do that, details become too blurry to my taste.
Thanks for your tests and feedback!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
The issue is that I just don't have much in the way of 4K test patterns.
You don't need 4K test patterns. I don't do anything special for 4K content. What I'm doing solely depends on the downscaling factor and nothing else. So you can take any Blu-Ray, downscale it just enough to have madVR show "luma <" in the OSD instead of "image <", and then compare the image quality to v0.88.8.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
But as I said: if this only applies to downscaling, and using linear light downscaling forces the old behavior anyway, I don't really have any objections.
However, you do think that it might hurt image quality. And that is a concern, so I'd still welcome if you could do a quick test to see if you can find a situation where image quality is lost in v0.88.10 compared to v0.88.8, when downscaling just enough to activate the new rendering path in v0.88.10 (without linear light downscaling, obviously).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
You can see that while the anti-ringing filter removes most of the ringing from Lanczos 8, it does not remove the distortion that the ringing has introduced on the right edge of that red circle.

We have come a long way since then however. NNEDI3 in particular makes a huge difference with that low resolution, low quality source.

Lanczos3 AR on top, NNEDI3 on the bottom.
Sure it can look a little "smoothed over" or artificial in places, but that's just the nature of the source being so low quality.
Though NNEDI3 and other options such as debanding have been in there for quite some time now, it still impresses me with just how much of an improvement madVR can make to low quality, low resolution sources.
You might like the chroma SuperRes processing, too, with the right settings. But that's for later. For now I would really like to finish up the debanding discussion, so we can move on to discuss the next new feature.

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Originally Posted by Deim0s View Post
If not copy the folder "legal stuff", an error occurs "OpenCL compiler error".
This folder is needed now?
Oh well. I changed this to satisfy LGPL requirements. But I guess I could change it once more to not require the folder. Will put that on my to do list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i did the test with nvidia and nvidia is for 100% dithering.

first test. 6 bit tn asus vg248qe. nvidia can only send 8 bit to this screen.

8 bit madVR without dithering shows a ton of banding.
d3d11 10 bit FSE doesn't show banding.
Same here.

I've tried to find any API that would tell me whether the GPU actually outputs 10bit or not, but I've not found anything, at least not nothing official GPU independent from Microsoft. I can see that Direct3D11 actually tells the GPU driver to output 10bit, and the driver accepts it, although I know for a fact that my display doesn't support 10bit. So basically it's a black box and I don't know what the GPU is doing with my 10bit output...

It's good that we have the dither registry tweaks for AMD. Wish we had something like that for NVidia and Intel, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaurus View Post
It sure is 88.10.

However I figured out what the problem was. I had to extract the two folders from the .zip as well (legal stuff and developers), until now I've not bothered about extracting those. Now it works fine. I didn't think madvr needed anything from those folders to function.
Ah, makes sense. I'll fix that for the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Using 88.10 and the 13.12 drivers I do get a pretty long black frame flash when rolling DX9 FSE/FSW or DX9 FS/windowed with Aero disabled in W7SP1 and if I enable the latter I randomly get previous frames from the movie or black frames.

I remember ppl complaining about the random previous frames a while ago but I was on XP at the time so I didn't pay much attention.

I take it that the black frame without Aero and random previous frames wirh Aero are known non-urgent cosmetical problems?
It's not so bad here, at least with Windows 8.1. There's no improvement in that area planned, not sure if there is anything I can do. Maybe the issue only occurs on Windows 7. I don't know if what you're seeing is the same what I'm seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
I don't know if it's intended or not, but the OSD show D3D9 fullscreen windowed mode even though I checked "use Direct3D 11 for presentation".
I haven't checked "present a frame for every sync" (it's for exclusive mode if I remember correctly) and native display bitdepth is 8 bit.
Which OS are you on? Do you have the Windows 7 platform update installed?
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:24   #30494  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Which OS are you on? Do you have the Windows 7 platform update installed?
I'm on Windows 7.
I'm not sure Windows 7 platform update is installed. Is it the KB2670838 update ? If it is, then yes I haven't installed it yet.

EDIT : Yep, it was this update. It's ok now. Thanks.
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:37   #30495  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
It's not so bad here, at least with Windows 8.1. There's no improvement in that area planned, not sure if there is anything I can do. Maybe the issue only occurs on Windows 7. I don't know if what you're seeing is the same what I'm seeing.
I could try to make a video but I guess it's just like you said: XP was a lot snappier....pretty ironic huh.

Basically I get a black frame for quite a while during every transition and with Aero enabled I get a random frame from the movie between the black frames, which is a lot more annoying

So on W8 you do get the slow updating black frame but no previous frame from the movie? The latter comes with Aero on W7SP1, I would enjoy a clear confirmation whether upgrading to W8/W10 would greet me with forced previous frames during transitions as Aero can't be disabled anymore.
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:42   #30496  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you have high present stats, try lowering the number of prepresented frames.

I've tried with different numbers and nothing changed, even it got worse with lower and higher numbers...
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:47   #30497  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
I'm on Windows 7.
I'm not sure Windows 7 platform update is installed. Is it the KB2670838 update ? If it is, then yes I haven't installed it yet.
I'm not sure about the KB, but the Windows 7 platform update is needed for madVR's DX11 rendering option.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Basically I get a black frame for quite a while during every transition and with Aero enabled I get a random frame from the movie between the black frames, which is a lot more annoying

So on W8 you do get the slow updating black frame but no previous frame from the movie? The latter comes with Aero on W7SP1, I would enjoy a clear confirmation whether upgrading to W8/W10 would greet me with forced previous frames during transitions as Aero can't be disabled anymore.
I don't seem to have this problem here with Windows 8.1 and AMD. Can't guarantee that there will not be any problem for you, either, though, if you update to Windows 8.1. Have seen too many weird problems from different users. So I don't feel safe predicting what your experience will be with Windows 8.1/10.

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I've tried with different numbers and nothing changed, even it got worse with lower and higher numbers...
How high are your present numbers exactly? Anything lower than 1ms should be ok.
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Old 28th May 2015, 21:53   #30498  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How high are your present numbers exactly? Anything lower than 1ms should be ok.
With D3D9 fullscreen windowed new path they are: 0.12 ms

with D3D11 they are: around 0.55 ms
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Old 28th May 2015, 22:25   #30499  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You don't need 4K test patterns. I don't do anything special for 4K content. What I'm doing solely depends on the downscaling factor and nothing else. So you can take any Blu-Ray, downscale it just enough to have madVR show "luma <" in the OSD instead of "image <", and then compare the image quality to v0.88.8.
That's true, though it can be difficult to test at that sort of scale. It would be easier to test with 4K scaled down to a full-screen image.
I will have a look into it, but from some initial testing it doesn't seem to be problematic with all of the scaling/processing options we have available to us now.

Edit: Just to be clear though, if chroma is being upscaled, it is always being upscaled 2x, yes? (e.g. 720p > 1080p)


I did manage to get some testing done at 4K (though not with proper test patterns) but my system doesn't really handle it that well.
After changing the CPU priority of the player and adjusting the queue sizes, I was able to get smooth 4K video playback though.

I set up some new profiles to change the dither algorithm from ordered dither to random dither at 4K, and some of the other render/queue/trade quality for performance options had to be adjusted as well, which worked great.
I'm very happy with how flexible the profile system is.

This had me wondering if there was a specific reason that some settings are locked out of profiles.
For example, I had to drop the present queue size down to 6 from 8 for 4K, and I'd prefer to set that with a profile instead of it being set globally.

And though it's not specific to 4K playback, I'd really like to set up profiles that change the calibration and color & gamma settings based on the source content.
I'd like to use 2.40 gamma for 480/576/1080p content (movies) and 2.20 gamma for all other source resolutions.
That's a setting I find myself changing quite often depending on the source content, so it would be very convenient to have that switch automatically.

Last edited by 6233638; 28th May 2015 at 22:32.
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Old 28th May 2015, 22:49   #30500  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Edit: Just to be clear though, if chroma is being upscaled, it is always being upscaled 2x, yes? (e.g. 720p > 1080p)
wouldn't x2 of 720p be 1440p?
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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