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7th December 2020, 04:52 | #60942 | Link |
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A lot of reading, yes. And I'd not recommend going into that post and saying "hey I'm new here how do I set this up". Look for NeoXP's posts where he posts his settings and start from there. In the previous couple pages of that thread he posted his latest settings. Adapt them to your liking.
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7th December 2020, 05:39 | #60943 | Link | |
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How are they establishing right/ wrong, if none of them have access to a panel that could come remotely close to the director's intent ? Unless one of them does own an x300/hx310/cg3145 Or is the test case the same as off-the-street focus groups where you pick a bunch of guys, and ask um , hey this look good to you ?
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7th December 2020, 11:20 | #60945 | Link | |
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I think you might be severely misjudging the level of experience you're observing in that thread |
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7th December 2020, 14:19 | #60946 | Link |
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Exactly. These are people that madshi trusts. They aren't just some random people off the street. I tell people to start with neoxp settings because he understands how madvr works on a very intricate level. But he's also using a 400 nit panel which is why I tell people to start with his settings, not directly copy them and walk away. Nonetheless there are times that madshi doesn't agree with them. The saturation issue is one of those times right now. What ends up happening in those cases is compromise.
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7th December 2020, 17:53 | #60947 | Link |
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Does neoxp have a videography background ?
@Ryrynz, I'm not against the concept of self-taught expertise, But how is the process validated, when the person involved does not have access to reference systems. I'm not dumping on the guy, I just want to understand on what are these recommendations set on. I agree, what has come out looks aight to me, and often nicer than the dolbyvision renditions I've seen on mine and other lcds. For example, paraphrase from madshi, " look how a 10000nit projector would look ". If you've never seen a 10000nit projector or a 10000nit panel, or 4000nit pulsar panel, or a 1000nit lmcl panel, How is this --Look-- determined. I'm going to paint a picture of this rabbit, something I've never seen. I might get close with 2 big ears on a mouse, but I'm missing alot of rabbit-subtleties no ?
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7th December 2020, 18:14 | #60948 | Link |
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madshi approaches it from a scientific perspective, which is why they are having trouble coming to a conclusion on the saturation issues. By following the math and standards, madshi wants to get as close to possible at reproducing the image that a 10000 nit display would show. Obviously NO ONE knows what that looks like as to my knowledge such a device doesn't exist. And when we finally do get to higher nit screens, we'll find out just how close (or not) we actually are. There's discussion of Javs and madshi renting/buying a mastering HDR display to test some of this on. Because right now, even madshi is working off assumptions. And those assumptions could turn out to be wildly inaccurate down the road. Personally I don't get so hung up on this. To me, what madvr provides with the settings I have is vastly superior to what the LG tonemapping gives me in passthrough. Can I quantify which one is more "correct"? No. if I had to place bets? My bet has been on madvr and will continue to do so.
But to answer your question of "how can they know".....the answer is, they can't.
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7th December 2020, 18:35 | #60949 | Link | |
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7th December 2020, 18:40 | #60950 | Link | |
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I mean it's good that they try to go for a scientific way, but the problem is that there's no real standard to follow, even standards change in time (see HDR diffuse white)... It's all BS Do you like what you see? Then use it. If you don't then don't. And that's why I joke recently about "direcror's intent", if something is out in DV then you have to watch it that way. That's the closest we can get Everything else is BS.
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7th December 2020, 18:54 | #60951 | Link | |
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That's his latest. Are you sure about that, though? I know you were mostly joking but the idea that DV is somehow superior or "closer to director's intent" is certainly debateable. That assumes that the director graded it or had some oversight on it. And it assumes that your chosen DV display perfectly tone maps. And yes, DV is still tone mapping, only with "dynamic metadata". Who's to say that's better? madshi has said in the past he doesn't think so, although he wishes he could have the 12 bit video to use. To be sure, DV is better implemented than HDR on our LG screens. But I question whether it's drastically superior. It's still tone mapping since these displays are nit limited. Which is another reason I refuse to replace my display. Why trade one low nit display for another? i want a 4000 nit display. Then we can limit tone mapping to anything between 4001 and 10000. Ultimately, we want to get out of the tone mapping game altogehter.
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7th December 2020, 20:19 | #60952 | Link |
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There's a range between "100% identical to the grading monitor" and "100% bullshit", though. The goal is to try to approach the former rather than do totally random stuff, and it's commendable.
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7th December 2020, 21:08 | #60953 | Link |
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Exactly. One of the things madvr does (or attempts to do) which is commendable in its approach is to attempt to not introduce artifacts. That's important because almost all tone mapping by definition is going to be a compromise. Look at LG's dynamic tone mapping solution...it screws with brightness. That's just one example. madvr attempts to compress into the allocated nit range while not messing up the picture. That's admirable.
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7th December 2020, 23:21 | #60954 | Link |
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If you look in the Dolby Vision manual, (paraphrasing) it only stipulates the final grade get a (cursory) look over on an LG Oled. No other tv, nothing else. The LG isn't used for grading, it's just an -in case something goes horribly wrong-
So, that's the limitation of Dolby vision as it applies to Director's Intent on consumer side, which is to say, Equally Bullshit. Again, I like madvr's rendition, I'm fine with Neoxp, I only wanted to know if we doing Big ears on a mouse. I intended no disparagement. But if he's using a 400nit screen, maybe that's why it looks good on my setup because I clamp my screen to 330 nits, beyond that (LCD) black level becomes unacceptable. I'm using a 6500:1 contrast panel.
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8th December 2020, 00:11 | #60955 | Link |
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I mean you can't really know if you're getting director's intent when tone mapping of any kind is applied. You're taking something that's meant for a very high nit display and compressing it into a range that's far smaller. By definition, you're now changing the director's intent else they would have mastered it into a lower nit range. So the best you can hope for is what madshi is trying to achieve.
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8th December 2020, 00:42 | #60956 | Link |
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Directors also are not always color experts (and in fact could be color-blind). Was it LOTR that picked up a greenish cast when the Blu-ray was released? And no one noticed until it was out in circulation?
The Technicolor contract included a requirement that a Technicolor color coordinator be on the crew to make sure the heavily saturated colors were right. Natalie Kalmus is the name you see most often in the early films. She was married to Herbert Kalmus, who invented the technology. |
8th December 2020, 07:11 | #60957 | Link |
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That's correct, but things like dynamic target nits tend to make all scenes look similarly bright. This is clearly not the director intent. Neither Dolby Vision nor HDR10+ do anything like that. I can understand that it's probably a must for projectors, but I wouldn't use it with a 400 nit screen. In the end it seems that madshi is determined to get the most detail out of each scene, both in the shadows and in the highlights, which makes the scenes look good but with less differences between them. That's OK with me, but it seems to contradict his claiming of a correct and scientific rendering. If the shadow details are hidden on the mastering monitor, they should stay that way.
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8th December 2020, 10:56 | #60958 | Link | |
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9th December 2020, 12:55 | #60959 | Link |
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I installed win 10 pro a day ago, and I had noticed something in the nvidia control panel, should I enable these options for madvr. I'm attaching screencaps.
https://imgbox.com/u3wf1pqR https://imgbox.com/CxIgvAQp |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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