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Old 26th December 2016, 00:51   #41741  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by fedpul View Post
And I would like to learn everything I could about display calibration. Could anyone provide me some links to start with the basics.
I suggest starting with this topic, and maybe asking there for further information (check out the rest of that forum too).
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Old 26th December 2016, 08:27   #41742  |  Link
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calibration controls for this display

Hi,

What is the difference between pure power curve and bt.709/601 curve?
Which should I choose? My tv supports bt.709, dci p3 and bt.2020. gamma 1.9, 2.2, 2.4 and bt.1886. I calibrate the tv using gamma 2.2
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Old 26th December 2016, 10:47   #41743  |  Link
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white screen with noise after pause/resume or seeking

I have a issue I haven't been able to solve with scaling from 2k to 4k.

Normal playback is fine. rendering time around 29ms. But when I pause and resume playback or seek forwards and backwards, quite often the picture disappears and I get a screen which is mainly white with sometimes a vague noise outline of the major contrast areas. Sound remains fine.

I'm running Windows 7 32 bit, gtx 1070 with drivers 376.33, mpc-hc 1.7.10. Have also tried mpc-be 1.5.0 but has the same problem. Lav filter .68.1, madvr .91.4

madvr settings:
pc levels
10 bit
display already calibrated
bt.709
bt.709 curve 2.40

artefact removal - reduce banding effects medium/high
image enhancements - none

chroma upscaling - NGU high
image downscaling - jinc, scale in linear light, activate anti-ringing filter relaxed
image upscaling - NGU luma very high, chroma normal
after doubling - upscaling jinc ar, downscaling use image downscaling settings
upscaling refinement - soften edges 1

rendering - in general settings I've tried every combo I could think of here, without solving problem

currently have :
delay playback and delay playback after seeking
enable windowed overlay
use direct3d 11 and present a frame for every vsync
use a separate device for presentation
cpu queue size 16
gpu queue size 8

all default settings for windowed mode

smooth motion off
dithering - error diffusion 2
trade quality for performance - everything off

If I select enable full screen exclusive mode, playback seems fine and pause/resume and seeking seems fine, but I get a big red "Out of Memory" across the screen.

lav filters:
NVidia cuvid, I have also tried dxva2 copy back with same result

pc levels
random dithering


Any suggestions on what I could do or try to solve this problem? I'm very impressed with the video quality madvr produces, but not really useable for me with this problem.

Thanks!

Last edited by ausvette; 26th December 2016 at 11:23.
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Old 26th December 2016, 10:57   #41744  |  Link
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
A Blu-ray player will typically output YCbCr (directly from the decoded video stream) over HDMI. The TV does the YCbCr → RGB conversion.

Internally, a PC GPU works in RGB only. A PC will typically output RGB over HDMI. The TV just passes its through (hopefully) untouched.

If you enable YCbCr output in your GPU driver settings, the GPU will output YCbCr over HDMI. But internally, it still works in RGB. So what's going to happen is that the GPU will internally convert RGB to YCbCr, then send it over HDMI, then the TV will convert YCbCr back to RGB. The double conversion is pointless, and is likely to degrade quality (especially if there's chroma subsampling going on, or the PC and the TV disagree about which matrix to use).

Putting it all together, here's what happens when using madVR:

GPU driver configured to output RGB: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (RGB)

GPU driver configured to output YCbCr: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (converts from RGB to YCbCr) → TV (converts from YCbCr to RGB)

Hopefully you can see now that the second configuration doesn't make a ton of sense!
The bolded part above is true in theory (especially with PC monitors) but not correct most of the time in practice with TV/projectors.

If the display has color/hue controls, it has to convert the input signal to YcBcR to apply color/hue, then convert to RGB to display.

So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion [EDIT: on the TV side, not overall, see posts below].

The best way to check if your display converts to YCB before displaying in RGB is to try to change color/hue. If they are available/active, then the display converts to YCB even if you send RGB, before converting back to RGB.

This doesn't mean that RGB isn't better for MadVR (unless it causes levels issues), it's definitely what Madshi recommends for MadVR, just that it doesn't' necessarily create the "cleanest" path from a conversion point of view.


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Originally Posted by Oguignant View Post
Merry Crhistmas too!!!

X-tended Dynamic Range PRO increases the quality of HDR and even non-HDR content by revitalizing every scene with the widest range of brightness possible. It goes in tastes. I prefer not to use any image processing on the TV, it always makes it look artificial.

As for Color Space, you can leave it in Auto if it works correctly. If you use bt-2020 or DCI with encoded content for view bt-709 content, you will see some saturated colors.

The new video standard for Ultra High Definition content is BT.2020 (colors closer to reality)
The BT-2020 color standard lets you display about 3/4 of the visible color spectrum. The video standard for HD content (BT-709 Standard) only reproduces 30% of the spectrum reproduced by the new standard for 4k/UHD BT-2020.

DCI is the one that will be implemented the soonest, and it represents the basic color requirement of the HDR spec. To meet the minimum HDR requirements, a TV must be able to display over 90% of the DCI color space.

The main difference between DCI and bt-709 (the current standard color space) is that DCI can display many more tones of green, though there is also a slight expansion to the number of red tones. The number of blue tones was unchanged. Altogether, it covers just over half of the visual spectrum, and will provide a pretty significant increase in picture quality over bt-709, which covers only about 35% of the visual spectrum.

Hope this can help you!
This is incorrect too. DCI isn't and will never be used for consumer sources. It's used in cinema sources, and grading monitors are today still calibrated to DCI, but they use BT2020 as a container to distribute consumer content, so for consumers it's either rec-709 (bluray/HDTV) or BT2020 (UHD Bluray/UHDTV).

Content at the moment doesn't go further than DCI primaries, but it will progressively get closer to BT2020. Still, from a calibration point of view, DCI is irrelevant. You should never use a DCI mode with consumer content. If you do, the colors won't track accurately as even if the content was mastered on DCI monitors, it was encoded using BT2020 saturations.

For example, all current UHD Bluray titles report DCI primaries in the metadata, but that only tells the limitations of the grading monitor. It doesn't mean that the content was mastered using DCI primaries. All UHD Bluray titles are encoded using BT2020 primaries. The content doesn't reach the full gamut yet (like from a luminance point of view, the content doesn't reach the theoretical max of 10,000nits, but is closer to 1000-2500nits at most, even when graded at 4000nits).
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Last edited by Manni; 26th December 2016 at 11:42.
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Old 26th December 2016, 11:01   #41745  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion.
Thats not true, it just moves the conversion from the GPU to the TV, since PCs are inherently RGB, and personally I would prefer to let the TV do that if it has to, because it has a chance to preserve higher bitdepth and zero chance of messing up the matrix.

RGB Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU RGB -> TV converts to YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

YCbCr Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU converts to YCbCr -> TV YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

On top of that, RGB output has a chance to skip the YCbCr step in the TV entirely, since a TV can implement color management in RGB. I don't know how TVs typically work, but you don't have to use YCbCr to change the Hue. You would more likely use HSL space for that.
Many TVs offer CMS options in PC/Game mode, which at least means it preserves full 4:4:4 chroma, and often that also means it never leaves RGB since their entire YCbCr processing path is typically limited to 4:2:2
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 26th December 2016 at 11:09.
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Old 26th December 2016, 11:09   #41746  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Thats not true, it just moves the conversion from the GPU to the TV, and personally I would prefer to let the TV do that if it has to, because it has a chance to preserve higher bitdepth and zero chance of messing up the matrix.

RGB Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU RGB -> TV converts to YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

YCbCr Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU converts to YCbCr -> TV YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

On top of that, RGB output has a chance to skip the YCbCr step in the TV entirely, since a TV can implement color management in RGB. I don't know how TVs typically work, but you don't have to use YCbCr to change the Hue. You would more likely use HSL space for that.
Hi Nevcairiel,

This is a misunderstanding, I meant sending RGB to a TV/Projector usually means one extra conversion ON THE TV SIDE, compared to what had been posted earlier, that implied that sending RGB meant no extra conversion (in other words, that using RGB out from the GPU meant a "pure" RGB chain from MadVR output).

I did NOT mean that sending RGB means one extra conversion overall (I agree with the overall chains you posted), thanks for clarifying that if that's the way my post could be read.

Regarding how TV/Projectors work, I'm quoting what engineers told me (which is that the color/hue controls can't work in RGB, which leads to an extra internal conversion to YCB unless the color/hue controls are disabled when receiving RGB). They know more about this than I do.
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Last edited by Manni; 26th December 2016 at 11:36.
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Old 26th December 2016, 11:23   #41747  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausvette View Post
lav filters:
NVidia cuvid, I have also tried dxva2 copy back with same result
Software decoding method produce same problem for you? Try in LAV video Hardware decoder to use: None.
Also, uncheck windowed overlay (it work in dx9 mode) and use a separate device for presentation (test it, performance can be better\worse).
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Old 26th December 2016, 11:44   #41748  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
The bolded part above is true in theory (especially with PC monitors) but not correct most of the time in practice with TV/projectors.




If the display has color/hue controls, it has to convert the input signal to YcBcR to apply color/hue, then convert to RGB to display.

So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion.

The best way to check if your display converts to YCB before displaying in RGB is to try to change color/hue. If they are available/active, then the display converts to YCB even if you send RGB, before converting back to RGB.

This doesn't mean that RGB isn't better for MadVR (unless it causes levels issues), it's definitely what Madshi recommends for MadVR, just that it doesn't' necessarily create the "cleanest" path from a conversion point of view.




This is incorrect too. DCI isn't and will never be used for consumer sources. It's used in cinema sources, and grading monitors are today still calibrated to DCI, but they use BT2020 as a container to distribute consumer content, so for consumers it's either rec-709 (bluray/HDTV) or BT2020 (UHD Bluray/UHDTV).

Content at the moment doesn't go further than DCI primaries, but it will progressively get closer to BT2020. Still, from a calibration point of view, DCI is irrelevant. You should never use a DCI mode with consumer content. If you do, the colors won't track accurately as even if the content was mastered on DCI monitors, it was encoded using BT2020 saturations.

For example, all current UHD Bluray titles report DCI primaries in the metadata, but that only tells the limitations of the grading monitor. It doesn't mean that the content was mastered using DCI primaries. All UHD Bluray titles are encoded using BT2020 primaries. The content doesn't reach the full gamut yet (like from a luminance point of view, the content doesn't reach the theoretical max of 10,000nits, but is closer to 1000-2500nits at most, even when graded at 4000nits).
I sending rgb signal from nv card. In the Tv menu, i have this options in color managment, Saturation, Tint and luminance, for red, green, blue, yellow, cyan and magenta.




Does it mean that TV converts the RGB signal from NV to yCbCr, and then to RGB again?
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Old 26th December 2016, 12:32   #41749  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Oguignant View Post
I sending rgb signal from nv card. In the Tv menu, i have this options in color managment, Saturation, Tint and luminance, for red, green, blue, yellow, cyan and magenta.

Does it mean that TV converts the RGB signal from NV to yCbCr, and then to RGB again?
If the last two controls (color/tint) are still active when inputting RGB, this is very likely, but as I posted initially and as discussed with Nevairiel, it doesn't mean that RGB output isn't the better option for MadVR. It likely is (as long as it doesn't cause levels issues with other software). I only wanted to make it clear that outputting RGB to a TV/projector usually results in just as many colorspace conversions as outputting YCB, as you have one less on the PC side but one more on the TV side.

RGB out is definitely better for a PC monitor, and most likely for a TV/Projector as well. Some other factors (like levels issues with other software) might however lead you to use YCB.

If you only use MPC-BE (or HC or similar)/LAV/MadVR, stick to RGB out.
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Last edited by Manni; 26th December 2016 at 12:35.
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Old 26th December 2016, 14:10   #41750  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
If the last two controls (color/tint) are still active when inputting RGB, this is very likely, but as I posted initially and as discussed with Nevairiel, it doesn't mean that RGB output isn't the better option for MadVR. It likely is (as long as it doesn't cause levels issues with other software). I only wanted to make it clear that outputting RGB to a TV/projector usually results in just as many colorspace conversions as outputting YCB, as you have one less on the PC side but one more on the TV side.

RGB out is definitely better for a PC monitor, and most likely for a TV/Projector as well. Some other factors (like levels issues with other software) might however lead you to use YCB.

If you only use MPC-BE (or HC or similar)/LAV/MadVR, stick to RGB out.
If the controls are active. Using rgb or ycb I do not see differences in colors, I will leave rgb as you say.

In calibration, what is the difference between pure power curve and bt.709/601 curve?
Which should I choose? My tv supports bt.709, dci p3 and bt.2020. gamma 1.9, 2.2, 2.4 and bt.1886. I calibrate the tv using gamma 2.2
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Old 26th December 2016, 20:36   #41751  |  Link
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Check out the link in my signature, and please let me know if my descriptions for gamma curves don't make sense.
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Old 26th December 2016, 20:44   #41752  |  Link
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Check out the link in my signature, and please let me know if my descriptions for gamma curves don't make sense.
disable calibration controls for this display: The display is assumed to have a BT.709 gamut with a pure power gamma of 2.2 (probably).
this display is already calibrated: [BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20] This sets the current display characteristics. This affects the conversions used by madVR when playing video with a different gamut or using the 'enable gamma processing' option in 'color & gamma'.

Before asking a question, I first look at that page. If I am not clear, I ask the forum. Maybe when using a TV oled it is better to use X gamma curve.
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Old 26th December 2016, 20:58   #41753  |  Link
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BTW I recently updated to the latest version of PotP and when I seek several times in a row(even in windowed mode) I get this box showing up for a split second.
^ and that seems all solved with PotP 1.6.63856, apparently the company owning PotP has changed so maybe new coders had a hard time ironing things out or something. My custom D3D skin also looked funny sometimes and it's all good again as far as I can tell

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In this review I read that it is RGBA ... http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/ef9500
Hey thanks for the link, I thought those old OLED's selling for a grand would make stunning deals but apparently new ones cost twice more for a good reason huh, outrageous DSE at bay.

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Old 26th December 2016, 21:17   #41754  |  Link
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disable calibration controls for this display: The display is assumed to have a BT.709 gamut with a pure power gamma of 2.2 (probably).
this display is already calibrated: [BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20] This sets the current display characteristics. This affects the conversions used by madVR when playing video with a different gamut or using the 'enable gamma processing' option in 'color & gamma'.

Before asking a question, I first look at that page. If I am not clear, I ask the forum. Maybe when using a TV oled it is better to use X gamma curve.
I was thinking of these:
Quote:
pure power curve: [Default] use the standard pure power gamma function
BT.709/601 curve: Use the inverse of a meant for camera gamma function. It has a linear section near black so shadows lighten faster as you move away from black. This can be helpful if your display has crushed shadows.
2.20, 2.40, etc.: [2.20] changes the display's gamma, based on the display's settings in 'calibration', to this target gamma. Lower brightens mid range values which can be nice in a brightly lit room. Higher darkens mid range values which might look better in a darker room.
BT.2020 will be basically pure power 2.4 gamma on an OLED so if you are in a dark room that is what I would recommend, 2.2 for a normally lit room.
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Old 26th December 2016, 21:29   #41755  |  Link
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I was thinking of these:


BT.2020 will be basically pure power 2.4 gamma on an OLED so if you are in a dark room that is what I would recommend, 2.2 for a normally lit room.
What do you mean, calibration or color & gamma? to set to pure power curve 2.20
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Old 26th December 2016, 22:20   #41756  |  Link
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Dithering on LG 10 bits tv

I found this note that says:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1421919922

LG told us that the new 4K OLED TVs use true 10-bit panels no dithering and that the built-in HEVC decoder can process 4K HDR at 10-bit, too.

Does it mean I have to disable dithering in madvr?
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Old 26th December 2016, 22:35   #41757  |  Link
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What do you mean, calibration or color & gamma? to set to pure power curve 2.20
Those are just my descriptions of the various gamma curves, I would not use madVR to change the gamma if you can calibrate your display to the gamma you want.

I use BT.2020 for dark room viewing, on your OLED TV that is probably equivalent to pure power 2.4 gamma. You could calibrate to 2.4 but then have madVR convert to 2.2 when your room is too bright.

Calibration is where you tell madVR what your display is calibrated to and color and gamma is where you can change the output to achieve a different gamma from what your display is calibrated too. If you set this display is already calibrated to pure power 2.2 and then set color and gamma to pure power 2.2 the color and gamma setting doesn't do anything, but if you set color and gamma to pure power 2.4 madVR will darken mid range values to achieve a 2.4 gamma on a display calibrated to 2.2.
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Old 26th December 2016, 22:39   #41758  |  Link
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Those are just my descriptions of the various gamma curves, I would not use madVR to change the gamma if you can calibrate your display to the gamma you want.

I use BT.2020 for dark room viewing, on your OLED TV that is probably equivalent to pure power 2.4 gamma. You could calibrate to 2.4 but then have madVR convert to 2.2 when your room is too bright.

Calibration is where you tell madVR what your display is calibrated to and color and gamma is where you can change the output to achieve a different gamma from what your display is calibrated too. If you set this display is already calibrated to pure power 2.2 and then set color and gamma to pure power 2.2 the color and gamma setting doesn't do anything, but if you set color and gamma to pure power 2.4 madVR will darken mid range values to achieve a 2.4 gamma on a display calibrated to 2.2.
perfect! Thank you. You are very kind to answer my questions
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Old 26th December 2016, 22:45   #41759  |  Link
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I found this note that says:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1421919922

LG told us that the new 4K OLED TVs use true 10-bit panels – no dithering – and that the built-in HEVC decoder can process 4K HDR at 10-bit, too.

Does it mean I have to disable dithering in madvr?
NO! THERE IS NEVER A REASON TO DISABLE madVR's DITHERING.

That means when you send the display a 10-bit signal it won't display it by dithering on an 8-bit panel.

Example: a pixel value is 513 in 10-bit (edit: 128.25 in 8-bit) so a fake dithering 10-bit panel sets the pixel to 128 (8-bit) 75% of the time and 129 25% of the time.
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Old 26th December 2016, 22:53   #41760  |  Link
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NO! THERE IS NEVER A REASON TO DISABLE madVR's DITHERING.

That means when you send the display a 10-bit signal it won't display it by dithering on an 8-bit panel.

Example: a pixel value is 513 in 10-bit (edit: 128.25 in 8-bit) so a fake dithering 10-bit panel sets the pixel to 128 (8-bit) 75% of the time and 129 25% of the time.
Okay, do not lose your temper! It was just a question
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