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Old 6th August 2018, 14:31   #51981  |  Link
svengun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.
hhmm I do have the 16-.... limited range changed to full (0-255) , by choosing player settings

Maybe I overlooked another option (switching to Nvidia colors)

I tried DDU a few times , but when logging into Safe Boot (option 4) I get a Stack Buffer Overflow and can't log in to Win ;-(

I'm on the Win Insiders program , Skip-ahead ring

Many thanks for your suggestion will try it when I get home , if not I'll do a fresh install when the Win Insider ROM's are available again (Redstone 5)
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Old 6th August 2018, 15:13   #51982  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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@ Warner360,

Not sure if it has been covered before, but is there a calculation for target nits? My Samsung KS8000 has a claimed nits of 1,000 in HDR mode, but using the new HDR to SDR algo, anything over a target nits of 125 makes the image too dark.
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Old 6th August 2018, 15:19   #51983  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
@ Warner360,

Not sure if it has been covered before, but is there a calculation for target nits? My Samsung KS8000 has a claimed nits of 1,000 in HDR mode, but using the new HDR to SDR algo, anything over a target nits of 125 makes the image too dark.
That makes no sense. I've never heard of a display that uses a target nits that low, let alone an actual HDR display.

There is no current way to calculate this. It may help to label this setting "target HDR nits" or "target PQ nits" because it is unrelated to the brightness of your display. It is a measure of how much compression is applied to the original curve in absolute nits, not relative nits.

I have two displays that are around 150 nits. One uses a setting of 350-400 nits, the other 450-500 nits with the same 2.40 gamma curve to achieve similar relative brightness. Your result is nonsense.

If you have an HDR display that bright, you wouldn't benefit much from HDR -> SDR, anyways. Passthrough would be the way to go.
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Old 6th August 2018, 15:33   #51984  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
That makes no sense. I've never heard of a display that uses a target nits that low, let alone an actual HDR display.
? Like I said anything higher than 125 for target peak nits makes the image too dark (obviously in SDR mode), and I'm fully aware what "target HDR nits" does.

Even though I have a HDR display at 1,000 nits, I am comparing the new HDR to SDR algo tone mapping, VS HDR Pass through.

Oddly enough, the SDR peak brightness of the set is:

SDR Real Scene Peak Brightness
: 489 cd/m2
SDR Peak 2% Window
: 1116 cd/m2
SDR Peak 10% Window
: 1332 cd/m2
SDR Peak 25% Window
: 723 cd/m2
SDR Peak 50% Window
: 528 cd/m2
SDR Peak 100% Window
: 532 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 2% Window
: 296 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 10% Window
: 644 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 25% Window
: 522 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 50% Window
: 538 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 100% Window
: 530 cd/m2


But thanks for your response.

K
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Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 6th August 2018 at 15:45.
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Old 6th August 2018, 16:04   #51985  |  Link
nevcairiel
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If you convert to SDR and then display on a HDR display and want a HDR-like representation, you would have to manually massively increase the brightness, if the display even lets you reach HDR-levels, because HDR peak brightness is not designed for that in many cases. But that would make normal SDR content quite overly bright, so you would have to compensate for that as well.

Basically, if your display is properly calibrated for SDR content, then converting HDR to SDR should probably use a low nit value, because thats what your TV is setup for. You would have to re-calibrate the TV if you want to target a higher peak brightness in SDR mode. And of course remember to use a 3DLUT for example to restore SDR to its normal brightness.

Its a bit of an annoying combination to setup, and if your TV can display HDR properly, using pass-through would be better.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 6th August 2018 at 16:07.
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Old 6th August 2018, 16:20   #51986  |  Link
Warner306
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Using that combination with an HDR display is definitely problematic. HDR presentation at SDR brightness is very difficult to calibrate and the gamma curve makes it even more difficult. Using a low peak nits stacks values too close together and leads to a very flat image appearance and a lack of detail, as well as problems with color. Achieving an HDR presentation at SDR brightness means using a slightly higher peak nits and living with a low value for reference white (100 nits). Most of the original contrast will still be there, but the image will be darker. Not all movies are terribly dark and some match the Blu-ray reasonably well and come with more refined detail, even when downscaled. It depends on the metadata.
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Old 6th August 2018, 16:52   #51987  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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@ Nevcairiel.

Yes, all very true, but as you alluded to, it depends on the set and calibration.

Besides projector owners, and owners of SDR displays, there are people with HDR displays that will possibly choose the new HDR to SDR algo, because often the TV manufacturers HDR tone mapping algos are extremely poor.

At 125 target nits, and I get more (perceived?) contrast, more pleasing (accurate?) tone mapping and detail than straight HDR passthrough.

An example of this is the HDR version of Arrival at 18.02. In HDR mode, there is a loss of contrast and detail in the backround of the helicopter cabin on my TV, but not with the HDR to SDR algo set at 125 nits.

As always, it's down to the combination in setup and preferences.

K
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Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 6th August 2018 at 17:33. Reason: Typo
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Old 6th August 2018, 17:50   #51988  |  Link
svengun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.
Yup, you we're correct, plus

I feel stupid about this, I wasn't connected to my 4K HDR OLED , but to my 1080P monitor (DVI connected) :-(

Many, many thanks !
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Old 6th August 2018, 19:47   #51989  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
If you convert to SDR and then display on a HDR display and want a HDR-like representation, you would have to manually massively increase the brightness, if the display even lets you reach HDR-levels, because HDR peak brightness is not designed for that in many cases. But that would make normal SDR content quite overly bright, so you would have to compensate for that as well.

Basically, if your display is properly calibrated for SDR content, then converting HDR to SDR should probably use a low nit value, because thats what your TV is setup for. You would have to re-calibrate the TV if you want to target a higher peak brightness in SDR mode. And of course remember to use a 3DLUT for example to restore SDR to its normal brightness.

Its a bit of an annoying combination to setup, and if your TV can display HDR properly, using pass-through would be better.
so i guess the idea of using 2 different channels and cloning is not a well spread setup yet. the annoying would change to a remote click and maybe a profile for 3d LUTs
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Old 6th August 2018, 21:20   #51990  |  Link
KoKlusz
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@oldpainlesskodi

I have UE equivalent of KS8000, and using latest test builds madVR tonemapping gives me much better results than passtrough. Set the TV in either "Film" or "Game" mode, set the backlight to 20 and smart LED to High, then set peak target nits in madVR to 1000 if you want HDR, or backlight to 4 and target nits to 480 if you want SDR-like image.
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Old 7th August 2018, 06:48   #51991  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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@ KoKlusz.

Odd, for whatever reason, at 1000 target, using your suggested settings, its way too dark. Are you on the latest firmware?
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Old 7th August 2018, 09:09   #51992  |  Link
KoKlusz
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Yes.

Do you have dynamic contrast disabled? Are you sure that you using correct black levels? Did you enabled UHD color? What HDMI input label are you using?

Does madVR tonemapping looks darker with specific movie/video, or across the board?
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Old 7th August 2018, 09:44   #51993  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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Yes, yes, yes and PC. And it's across the board at 1000 nits for HDR to SDR.

Must just be my panel. Odd that its fine in HDR mode. At 125 nits, its about the same brightness as HDR passthrough, but with better tone mapping.
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Old 7th August 2018, 20:10   #51994  |  Link
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latest AMD driver looks pretty good to me, certainly on my machine the HDR auto toggle in MADVR is fixed and files are loading in half the time as before on 18.2.2. There were later versions where HDR toggle worked but they were unstable in windows for me (yet to see if this is stable), 18.3.4 was probably the last working HDR toggle driver I could find before this one.

Reds are still blown to hell with 23,976 SDR material though so i still have to leave calibration on in MADVR and calibrate to BT2020 to get a natural picture, suspect there is something in the drivers that AMD havent spotted yet which is pushing the wrong colour space to SDR 24,976 material, HDR is ok, could be they are treating all 23,976 material as HDR if a HDR output device is detected in the stream or something like that.

AMD tell me they are still looking into it...


EDIT - in addition to this, it was mentioned a few pages back that FSE is pretty much on its way out but some people could get 3D to work without it, I certainly cant, it was also mentioned I think some people needed that for HDR, not on mine, works fine. I also tried windowed mode, still no 3D, defo need FSE for 3D on AMD cards i'm sure unless someone know otherwise?

Last edited by mclingo; 7th August 2018 at 20:20.
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Old 8th August 2018, 06:59   #51995  |  Link
HelmedHorror
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I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but how do you get madvr to take a screenshot? I notice there's a screenshot settings page, but no information on how to actually take one. It's not in the keyboard shortcut section either...
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Old 8th August 2018, 07:32   #51996  |  Link
huhn
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by using the screeshoot function of a player.
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Old 8th August 2018, 07:40   #51997  |  Link
HelmedHorror
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Quote:
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by using the screeshoot function of a player.
Is there any way to get it in png quality? Given the sometimes tiny visual trying to be compared, it makes little sense to me to be comparing compressed images.
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Old 8th August 2018, 07:44   #51998  |  Link
huhn
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if the player supports it yes and mpc-hc does.
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Old 8th August 2018, 07:50   #51999  |  Link
Msarc
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Are there any other solutions for Windows 10 1803 update issues, apart from disabling "Focus Assist"?
Tried both DX9 and DX11 rendering/decoding, updated AMD drivers from 18.4.1 to 18.8.1, switched settings in MadVR - none of it made a difference.

So far, FSE mode is the only way I can get MadVR to work properly after 1803 update, and FSE is kind of a PITA to use.

I added some info to this issue on the bug tracker, but it looks like this is beyond Madshi's control. Thanks, Microsoft.
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Old 8th August 2018, 08:41   #52000  |  Link
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can you make a screen of the OSD?
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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