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Old 24th September 2018, 09:46   #52681  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
I am getting the JVC magenta bug with DVBViewer (50Hz) now. The magenta bug was supposed to be fixed by not sending HDR meta data. But I still get it even though I unchecked "send HDR meta data". I also noticed the "apply" button does not get active when toggeling the "send HDR meta data" checkbox. Could this be a bug?
My JVC doesn't show magenta, I don't know exactly what's causing it. But IIRC you can workaround it somehow, don't remember the details, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABDO View Post
WOW, the New" algorithm do great in hightlight Area

i really like how the over all picture in madvr looke way more pop and more live than mpv, i have play some youtube hdr video with latest madVR build, and what i can say that you have to see to believe how stuning result that madvr tone mapping do, but Looks like madvr Insists as Always when doing thing it doing it in the best way ever, This is a wonderful work at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
@Madshi which settings (and which target peak) were you using for the new algo in your comparison? It looks overprocessed/oversharpened and I don't like what it does to the grain in the picture, for example in the background of the BvsS shot. That's not what I see here, but it might be because I don't use extreme values in the settings (I use balanced/low). Just curious to know which settings cause this. And thanks again for all your good work, it's been quite a journey to get here!
You might dislike it because it's the default value of 200nits, which is quite bright, combined with conversion to BT.709. The other settings are standard, like "balanced" color fire & explosions and "medium" highlight recovery strength.

FWIW, I believe the grain in BvsS is in the source. You'd see the same grain strength on a perfect 10,000nits display. So madVR simply faithfully reproduces it.
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Old 24th September 2018, 10:51   #52682  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You might dislike it because it's the default value of 200nits, which is quite bright, combined with conversion to BT.709. The other settings are standard, like "balanced" color fire & explosions and "medium" highlight recovery strength.

FWIW, I believe the grain in BvsS is in the source. You'd see the same grain strength on a perfect 10,000nits display. So madVR simply faithfully reproduces it.
That makes sense, especially if you use medium recovery strength (I use low) and a 200nits target.

I know the grain is in the source (and I don't mind that), I just don't like what MadVr does to it in that instance with the new algo. If you compare the new algo with either old or dumb, you'll see what I mean. It exacerbates the grain due to perceived oversharpening/overprocessing.

Anyway, I certainly don't see this here with my settings in BT2020/DCI-P3 (balanced/low/600nits), which is what I would use for a 4000nits title like BvsS on my 100nits projector, so all is good .
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Last edited by Manni; 24th September 2018 at 10:53.
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Old 24th September 2018, 10:54   #52683  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Can you create a debug log for me? Please try to reproduce the problem quickly, then let it stay that way for maybe 20 seconds, then close/terminate the media player.

Also, please create 2-3 freeze reports from this situation, please (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Break, IIRC).
Hi madshi,

I sent you a PM with links to the logs I just created.

I created the freeze logs in release (NOT debug) mode.

Curiously, in debug mode, the video did not hang, but instead turned purple when the first sub was presented!! In any case I generated the debug log from that condition when it occurred.

To gather the debug log, I enabled debug mode, then started up a video in the player and toggled the subtitles until the VobSub stream was active, saw it go purple, waited about 20s then exited the player.

Let me know if you need any more info. Thanks!
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Old 24th September 2018, 14:06   #52684  |  Link
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To anyone who has an LG Oled:
In the service menu at "13. Oled" there is an option called "Module HDR". By default it's set to "normal" and if you set it to "on" it will increase SDR peak brightness, though I'm not quite sure if it reaches HDR brightness.
I don't have a meter so I can only eyeball it and I feel like it's a hint below HDR peak.

But if anyone with a meter who can can access the service menu would be willing to measure SDR peak brightness with this tweak I'd be interested in hearing the results. With this it might be beneficial to use madVR's HDR to SDR instead of passthrough.

To access the service menu you need a phone with an IR blaster and the app AnyMote.
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Old 24th September 2018, 14:09   #52685  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You will either want the TV to do tone mapping or madVR. It's probably not a good idea to let both tone map. So I'd suggest to either passthrough HDR to the display untouched. Or to let madVR do the tone mapping. The latter might give you the best quality. However, if you have an OLED display, maybe you'll not get the same brightness because from what I've read the OLED might switch to some sort of "overdrive" mode to squeeze out the last bit of possible brightness, when it receives HDR content. So if you let madVR do the tone mapping, you'll lose that overdrive mode (whether that is a good or bad thing is another question).
Being on an OLED I can confirm that setting anything higher then 120 nits produces the picture that is simply too dark and doesn't look correct at all. At 120 it looks good but my understanding is 120 is too low and not being able to set anything higher probably defeats the purpose of using it. I'm not sure about my other settings, I would say I haven't changed anything in the 'calibration tab'. I've set my OLED Light to 100 even though TV stayed in SDR mode and HDR have not been activated.

When I was comparing passthrough with convert HDR to SDR at 120 nits + are you nuts. I had the feeling both pictures are actually very similar with madVR doing it better so I wouldn't say that peak brightness in HDR vs convert HDR to SDR was that big of a difference.

If I set the nits to 300-480 or even 200-250 content is unwatchable, just too dark and it's clear from the first look this is not how the picture is supposed to look. On the other hand setting this at only 120 nits seems like too low and pointless?

Last edited by creativeopinion; 24th September 2018 at 14:17.
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Old 24th September 2018, 14:13   #52686  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
That makes sense, especially if you use medium recovery strength (I use low) and a 200nits target.

I know the grain is in the source (and I don't mind that), I just don't like what MadVr does to it in that instance with the new algo. If you compare the new algo with either old or dumb, you'll see what I mean. It exacerbates the grain due to perceived oversharpening/overprocessing.
No, it does not. It's quite the opposite. Tone mapping compresses a very wide dynamic range into a very small range. Which means that the distance between e.g. brighter and darker grain dots in bright image sections becomes compressed, too (both mathematically and perceptionally). Practically that means that grain becomes softened through tone mapping.

The new algo simply reconstructs the original distance (on a perceptional scale) between the grain dots. There's no exacerbation, no oversharpening and no overprocessing going on here at all. You can't use a softened image (old/dumb) as a reference for how grain should be reproduced.

To sum up: The new algo does not exacerbate the grain. The old algo and dumb mode soften it.

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Originally Posted by magic144 View Post
I sent you a PM with links to the logs I just created.
Thanks, I'll have a look.
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Old 24th September 2018, 14:17   #52687  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
To anyone who has an LG Oled:
In the service menu at "13. Oled" there is an option called "Module HDR". By default it's set to "normal" and if you set it to "on" it will increase SDR peak brightness, though I'm not quite sure if it reaches HDR brightness.
Good find! Any OLED owners out there able to measure/test this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeopinion View Post
If I set the nits to 300-480 or even 200-250 content is unwatchable, just too dark and it's clear from the first look this is not how the picture is supposed to look. On the other hand setting this at only 120 nits seems like too low and pointless?
In the end your eyes are the judge of what looks good to you. If madVR's tone mapped images with 120 nits look good to you, I won't object to you using that. Although, personally, I think I would consider that too bright for my taste.

Technically, UHD Blu-Ray defines exactly how bright each rendered pixel should look like, and if you choose 120 nits, you're watching the content brighter than it was meant to be watched. However, it's your right to exceed the intended brightness, if you prefer it that way. And if you have a lot of ambient light in your room, it might make sense.
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Old 24th September 2018, 14:31   #52688  |  Link
Sunset1982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Good find! Any OLED owners out there able to measure/test this?
I would if my colormeter weren't broken. I have to wait until I have a new one. Then I will test it. I am also very interested in madvr's tone mapping, but haven't tied it yet with my LG C8 oled



Any ideas whats good settings to start testing with on an oled? My TV's SD mode is calibrated to 140 nits. I think I heard about a setting for deactivating the tv's tone mapping. I will search for the solution and will let you know...


@madshi:

If there's a way to deactivate the tv's tonemapping in hdr mode, would it be possible to trigger the tv's hdr mode after madvr has done it's tonemapping? Does madvr does madvr completely convert the hdr signal to a sd colorspace and sends an sdr signal?
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Last edited by Sunset1982; 24th September 2018 at 14:41.
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Old 24th September 2018, 14:44   #52689  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
No, it does not. It's quite the opposite. Tone mapping compresses a very wide dynamic range into a very small range. Which means that the distance between e.g. brighter and darker grain dots in bright image sections becomes compressed, too (both mathematically and perceptionally). Practically that means that grain becomes softened through tone mapping.

The new algo simply reconstructs the original distance (on a perceptional scale) between the grain dots. There's no exacerbation, no oversharpening and no overprocessing going on here at all. You can't use a softened image (old/dumb) as a reference for how grain should be reproduced.

To sum up: The new algo does not exacerbate the grain. The old algo and dumb mode soften it.
Thanks for the explanation and the correction. I was wondering if the old algo / dumb were softening the picture with these settings, it looks like it's the case.

Just to clarify, I'm not used to look at pictures with these settings, and as I'm familiar with all the improvements in the new algo I was surprised to see what looked like a downside as I had not noticed/experienced it before, which is why I asked about the settings used.

If the old algo/dumb do indeed soften the picture with these settings, then it's one more benefit for the new algo

By the way, I apologize I only pointed this out and not how great the algo is. I have little time at the moment and was only continuing the discussion we've had over the last few months in the other thread, without realizing/remembering that this was fairly new here.

I didn't point or list the many benefits of the new algo because I thought they would be obvious to anyone (not only in this very example of BvsS, but in all the other screenshots you have selected), and because I'm familiar with them after weeks and months of testing.

I thought that thanking you for all your good work would make this obvious, but in case it isn't, I'd like to clarify for anyone who wasn't following the testing done in the other thread that I'm over the moon with the new algo, and that I'm neither using "dumb" or passthrough, nor the old algo anymore, and certainly don't regret them.

Just in case anyone could misread my comment for what it wasn't.

Keep up the good work, and thanks again for bringing us the best HDR to SDR conversion ever!
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Last edited by Manni; 24th September 2018 at 15:10.
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Old 24th September 2018, 14:53   #52690  |  Link
suanm
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I get back again to MadVR 0.92.16 version due to cropping bars.The feature is really important,especially to 1080p or 720p movies.I have to give up MadVR0.92.14 version.
Now im gonna ask all of guys which image quality is better,30HZ luma>NGU soft(high) and 60hz luma>NGU soft(high)<Bicubic 150 AR ? Thanka a lot in advance.
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Old 24th September 2018, 15:06   #52691  |  Link
suanm
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@Madshi
Thank you very much,master.I try to do as you mentioned above.
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Old 24th September 2018, 15:16   #52692  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
I am getting the JVC magenta bug with DVBViewer (50Hz) now. The magenta bug was supposed to be fixed by not sending HDR meta data. But I still get it even though I unchecked "send HDR meta data". I also noticed the "apply" button does not get active when toggeling the "send HDR meta data" checkbox. Could this be a bug?


Beside that I love the HDR improvements


NoTechi

edit
should have noted that I am on sat3 testbuild
If you think this issue is related to a stuck checkbox, you will have to reset your madVR settings. Not having an active "Apply" button does sound like this problem.

I'd first take out Notepad and copy any important madVR profile rules and save them. Then remove your settings.bin file and place it outside of the madVR installation folder. Finally, reset your madVR settings from the installation folder and see if the issue has been resolved. You can then paste your previous settings.bin back into the madVR installation folder to restore your old settings. The Notepad file is just there in case anything goes wrong.
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Old 24th September 2018, 15:20   #52693  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
Any ideas whats good settings to start testing with on an oled? My TV's SD mode is calibrated to 140 nits. I think I heard about a setting for deactivating the tv's tone mapping. I will search for the solution and will let you know...


@madshi:

If there's a way to deactivate the tv's tonemapping in hdr mode, would it be possible to trigger the tv's hdr mode after madvr has done it's tonemapping? Does madvr does madvr completely convert the hdr signal to a sd colorspace and sends an sdr signal?
Try 400-500 nits.

You can't disable your display's tone mapping. You can disable dynamic tone mapping if it has this feature, but you can't disable the gamma (PQ) curve in the display, which is where the tone mapping occurs. You could calibrate the display with a colorimeter to follow the PQ curve as close as possible. That would be the closest to avoiding any form of tone mapping for pixels that are within the display's brightness capabilities. Even then, the display might change its curve to match the brightness of the content.

Last edited by Warner306; 24th September 2018 at 16:24.
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Old 24th September 2018, 15:26   #52694  |  Link
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Based on the photos posted, the tone mapping has improved considerably from the previous build. Some may miss some of the extra saturation, but the improved color accuracy and highlight detail makes up for it. If those images came from the recent test build, I would just put it to print and be done with it.

Those shots do make it look like saturation was slowly removed from the picture over a six month period Obviously, there was more to it than that. Trial-and-error is sometimes the best way to go when you don't know where you are going...
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Old 24th September 2018, 15:58   #52695  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magic144 View Post
Playing back 720p HD mkv, run into new issue since (including) madVR version 0.92.15 (WASN'T present with 0.92.14 and reverting still works).

When I engage vobsub (idx/sub) subtitles via XySubFilter in Zoom Player, video freezes though audio continues. I don't get any subs. In fact the freezing only occurs at the point when the next sub would have appeared. It's non recoverable - have to restart player to restart video.
VobSub filter still works.
Plain text (SRT) subs still work in either sub filter.

Using AMD RX460 with Adrenalin 18.9.2 (latest) driver. Output is direct HDMI to Samsung monitor, 1920x1080 resolution.

Sub filters previously installed (as pair) via ZP Install Centre - reported as 3.1.0.747 via that installer.
VSFilter.dll (VobSub) shows 3.0.0.306
XySubFilter.dll (XySubFilter) shows 3.1.0.747
LAV Decoders 0.72.0 (video using DXVA2 copy-back)
Zoom Player is MAX v14.4b1 (latest, ZP is a 32-bit app)

----

UPDATE: same issue occurs on different PC w/ same software setup, but with older AMD Radeon HD5670
(again, reverting to madVR 0.92.14 works)
UPDATE2 (2018-09-21): issue confirmed in BOTH full-screen and windowed playback
UPDATE3 (2018-09-23): issue confirmed using LAV in BOTH (none) and DXVA2 (copy-back) acceleration (or not) modes
UPDATE4 (2018-09-23): issue confirmed on laptop w/ same software setup, but uses Intel HD GPU
I have the same issue with madvr 0.92.16 .
I'm using Windows 10, nvidia 1080ti, latest nvidia driver, Kodi DSplayer, latest LAV filters and XySubfilter.
The video plays fine until the first subtitle line should show up. It hangs before rendering the subtitle while the audio continues playing.
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Old 24th September 2018, 16:26   #52696  |  Link
magic144
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Originally Posted by mkl View Post
I have the same issue with madvr 0.92.16 .
I'm using Windows 10, nvidia 1080ti, latest nvidia driver, Kodi DSplayer, latest LAV filters and XySubfilter.
The video plays fine until the first subtitle line should show up. It hangs before rendering the subtitle while the audio continues playing.
Thanks for the confirmation. It's always good to know it's not just you it's happening to

I sent madshi a debug log and freeze reports as requested. Hopefully something will be apparent from them.
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Old 24th September 2018, 17:04   #52697  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That's weird, shouldn't be happening. 8bit RGB Full Range should be totally banding free (unless the source contains banding, obviously).

You do have dithering enabled in madVR? Have you tried setting your display properties manually to 8bit in the madVR settings?
Looks like the banding is in the source, x264 (AVC) 8-bit blu ray.

I guess dithering can only do so much?
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Old 24th September 2018, 17:17   #52698  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
If there's a way to deactivate the tv's tonemapping in hdr mode, would it be possible to trigger the tv's hdr mode after madvr has done it's tonemapping? Does madvr does madvr completely convert the hdr signal to a sd colorspace and sends an sdr signal?
In theory madVR's "process HDR content by using pixel shader math" should do exactly this. However, most TVs are too stupid to turn off their tone mapping, if madVR's metadata suggests that it's not needed. So it might not work as expected in real life. But I can't say for sure, without having tested such a TV myself.

(Besides, reportedly the "process HDR content" feature is currently broken. Will have to investigate.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I'd like to clarify for anyone who wasn't following the testing done in the other thread that I'm over the moon with the new algo, and that I'm neither using "dumb" or passthrough, nor the old algo anymore, and certainly don't regret them.
Thank you, Manni!

Quote:
Originally Posted by suanm View Post
I get back again to MadVR 0.92.16 version due to cropping bars.The feature is really important,especially to 1080p or 720p movies.I have to give up MadVR0.92.14 version.
Now im gonna ask all of guys which image quality is better,30HZ luma>NGU soft(high) and 60hz luma>NGU soft(high)<Bicubic 150 AR ?
I'm a bit confused. What does cropping bars have to do with selecting v0.92.16 vs v0.92.14? And how can you be "back to v0.92.16", if that's the newest build?

Not sure about your image quality question, either. Why would 60Hz contain a Bicubic downscaling step while 30Hz does not? What does refresh rate have to do with resolution or with up/downscaling?

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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Based on the photos posted, the tone mapping has improved considerably from the previous build. Some may miss some of the extra saturation, but the improved color accuracy and highlight detail makes up for it. If those images came from the recent test build, I would just put it to print and be done with it.

Those shots do make it look like saturation was slowly removed from the picture over a six month period Obviously, there was more to it than that. Trial-and-error is sometimes the best way to go when you don't know where you are going...
The screenshots are very near to what v0.92.16 would produce, with a small added tweak. But we're still testing some potential further improvements on AVSForum, so it's not time yet for a new official build.

v0.92.16 is using a different formula to calculate the final saturation compared to v0.92.14. In many cases the final saturation is a bit lower now, but in some cases, it can also be higher. Saturation is generally a very difficult parameter to dial in. Using more saturation is nice, but we have to avoid overcooked skin tones. Also, trading in some saturation for added luminance can sometimes help rendering highlights with more detail. I'm pretty happy with the algo now, in any case.

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Originally Posted by chinobino View Post
Looks like the banding is in the source, x264 (AVC) 8-bit blu ray.

I guess dithering can only do so much?
The primary purpose of dithering is not to remove banding. The primary purpose is to avoid adding new banding artifacts to the source. If you want to remove banding which is in the source, you need some sort of debanding filter. madVR has such a filter. Some TVs do, too.

I do wonder why you see the banding artifacts in RGB 8bit Full, and not in YCbCr 4:2:2, though? That doesn't make too much sense to me - unless your TV applies debanding for YCbCr 4:2:2 input, but not for RGB input?
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Old 24th September 2018, 19:06   #52699  |  Link
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About the screenshots comparison, I don't know anything at HDR (and I'm not really interested). In the end, the best images are the one with better contrast isn't it ?
Is it right to say it looks exactly like "dynamic contrast" options from TV ?
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Old 24th September 2018, 19:19   #52700  |  Link
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You might not be interested in HDR, but HDR is interested in you! Er, by that I mean that HDR is probably going to become more common as time goes on, so if you don't have an HDR display you'll need some way to display that content on an SDR display without it looking awful.

HDR basically just lets really bright things (like sunlight) be really bright. If you don't have a display that supports that kind of brightness, you need to reduce the brightness of the footage in a way that still looks natural - so you don't end up with a scene shot in daylight that looks like it was shot at night, or a scene where all the bright things are just pure white and you can't see any details. That's what madshi is currently working on.

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 24th September 2018 at 19:22.
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