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26th March 2020, 09:36 | #42 | Link | |
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Both Bluray players here (Sony and Samsung) display their own menus at 60Hz. One only switches the TV to 50Hz when playing a 25fps disc, while the other is also clever enough to switch the TV to 50Hz when playing 25fps video via USB. I'm not sure which refresh rate the TV uses when playing video via it's internal media player. I've never tested it but most of the video I use it for is 23.976fps/24fps anyway. My LCD computer monitor can accept either a 60Hz or 50Hz input. NTSC support has been common for so long, that back when DVD rentals were a thing, I'd occasionally rent a DVD and not realise it was NTSC until I looked more closely at home, but even my old CRT could switch to "NTSC mode" and the DVD player didn't care. Last edited by hello_hello; 26th March 2020 at 09:42. |
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4th February 2021, 02:13 | #44 | Link | |
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I play via MPV running in Win10. The Sharp TV is connected via NVIDIA driven DisplayPort. The TV model is LC-42LB261U. |
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9th October 2021, 21:06 | #45 | Link |
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Sorry for getting really technical but this is a really technical subject.
If you're tired of seeing crap video and you find that my "best possible video" obsession interests you... I need your support trying to pry details out of the various project developers. There's power in numbers. Contact me here or via PM. KEY: (In lieu of useless terms like '30i' and '24p'...) KEY: "fps" means "frames-per-second"; "pps" means "pictures-per-second". 23.9fps[24pps] is BD/DVD cinema, progressive or soft telecined, ripped from disc [note 1]. 59.9fps[2-2-2-4[24pps]] is my best guess how my TV displays 23.9fps[24pps] [note 2]. 24fps[24pps] is 23.9fps[24pps] forced to theater frame rate/running time [note 3]. 60fps[60pps] is 24fps[24pps] with interframe synthesis via 2-to-5 mv interpolation [note 4]. 120fps[120pps] is 24fps[24pps] with interframe synthesis via 1-to-5 mv interpolation [note 5]. [note 1] 24pps is what's seen in theaters [note 6]; DVDs/BDs slow that down by 0.1% [note 7]. [note 2] 2-2-2-4 pull-down by the TV (...by appearance, the TV doesn't disclose anything). [note 3] Force timebase & presentation time stamps via ffmpeg 'settb=expr=1/24,setpts=expr=N'. [note 4] Motion vector interpolation synthesizes interframes & interframe pictures. [note 5] Even better interframe synthesis due to integer (i.e. 5x, not 2.5x) interpolation. [note 6] "Better" theaters triple-shutter to 72fps[24pps] but the picture rate remains 24pps. [note 7] Slowdown: 24fps-to-24/1.001fps (so video can be telecined to NTSC 29.9fps ...yuck). My Sharp 2K-TV, 1, Converts 23.9fps[24pps] inputs to 59.9fps[2-2-2-4[24pps]] display -- creates telecine judder; 2, Smooths (fuzzes) 59.9fps[2-3[24pps]] inputs -- less telecine judder but creates combing; 3, Displays 60fps[60pps] incredibly smoothly -- no judder, no combing; 4, Apparently drops alternate frames (120fps -> 60fps) without damaging the TV. What does your TV do? How can you discover what your TV does? What's 'best' for all TVs? |
9th October 2021, 23:02 | #46 | Link |
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Hi-end Samsung TVs from 2009 onwards do the following:
Input: 23.976p -> Linear Interpolation to 48fps + blending to 60p Input: 29.970 telecined with 3:2 pulldown -> detects the telecine -> IVTC to 23.976p -> Linear Interpolation to 48fps + blending to 60p Input: 29.970i (truly interlaced like for sports) -> bob to 60p Input: 29.970p -> Linear Interpolation to 60p Any other framerate set in between result in the TV not understanding what's going on and just leaving things as they are. For instance if you were to transmit a signal with let's say 28fps, it will display it as it is, resulting in stuttering etc. What about 25p then? Well, if the TV is set to 60Hz, it doesn't detect it and just outputs the same, however if the TV is set to 50Hz it detects it and performs linear interpolation to 50p. A note about linear interpolation: I've noticed that linear interpolation is quite good, but there are some artifacts, however those are limited. What I think happens underneath is that when the TV just doesn't know, it performs blending instead of linear interpolation, hence trying to limit the times in which linear interpolation results in artifacts. Of course, the vast majority of contents I watch are PAL 'cause I live in PAL land and the TV is set to 50Hz, therefore what happens is that I always receive a 25i signal, but while for sports it's a real 25i signal that has to be bobbed to 50p and then displayed (and the TV does just that), for movies and TV Series it's actually a 25p flagged as 25i, therefore the TV detects that it's actually progressive and treats it as progressive (i.e it applies linear interpolation to 50p). There have been just a few times in which this didn't work out: you see, even though the content might be progressive, sometimes there are messages in a ticker showing up in the lower part of the screen and those messages are of course interlaced 'cause the whole stream is supposed to be interlaced, so what happens is that sometimes the TV detects it, switches to bobbing mode and you see the text moving fine but the whole scene stutter ('cause now you have those frames duplicated), and sometimes it doesn't and it keeps treating it as progressive and you see the text in the lower part of the screen being displayed as an interlaced mess. Last edited by FranceBB; 9th October 2021 at 23:05. |
10th October 2021, 00:44 | #47 | Link | |
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When you say "linear interpolation" are you talking about "smooth motion" settings and such? I.e. things no sane person would turn on in the first place?
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10th October 2021, 03:54 | #48 | Link | |
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I'm with you. FranceBB can't mean motion vector interpolation because, if the TV is doing the decoding -- doubtful but possible -- then inside the TV at that point there's raw frames. Either that or, if the input is from a player or computer over HDMI or DisplayPort, then the TV's input is definitely raw frames. So, FranceBB must mean pixel interpolation (or maybe, just frame doubling) to 47.9fps and then 2-3 telecine to 59.9fps -- Is that right, FranceBB? My Sharp has "smooth motion" and it's awful. I turned it off the first time I powered it up. |
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10th October 2021, 04:41 | #49 | Link | |||||
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The reason I'm so interested is that I'm considering buying a new TV and the marketing material just doesn't reveal what TVs actually do. Thanks for your contribution and your thoughts and feel free to clarify or ask questions. --Mark. |
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10th October 2021, 05:07 | #50 | Link | |
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Last edited by markfilipak; 10th October 2021 at 05:13. |
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10th October 2021, 06:16 | #51 | Link |
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@FranceBB,
PS: If you're only processing 29.9fps[59.9sps] -- "sps" = "scans per second" -- then there's no reason for going to 119.8fps[119.8pps] (i.e. 4x mv interpolation); interpolating to 59.9fps[59.9pps] (i.e. 2x mv interpolation) will do. If so, then delay the 2nd field stream by only 1 frame (instead of 2) and bob the 1st field for only 1 frame (instead of 2) and then weave. I suggested 119.8fps because I take everything to 119.8fps (well, 120fps, actually). I do that because most of what I process are 23.9fps[24pps] and mixed 29.9fps[59.9sps]+29.9fps[2-3[24pps]], i.e. "Making Of" documentaries. |
10th October 2021, 07:49 | #52 | Link |
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he said 2009 and only named one brand. this does not apply today pretty much all display these days are native 120 with 100 mode in Europe too they also usually support 120 HZ input at 1080p or better.
panasonic still does 6:4(3:2 in frames) at 120 HZ with a 24 source when pure direct is used. 2018 was just a bad year to buy a TV with proper 24 HZ support thanks to the 60 HZ limited panels back then. deint to 120 HZ to properly display 60 HZ source with film or mixed content is a basic feature of sony panels with 120 HZ for like 8 years now. |
10th October 2021, 14:09 | #53 | Link | |||
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It doesn't tell me anything, but what I see is what I also saw in the studio. For instance, if I'm watching Sky Cinema and I'm watching a movie, I know for a fact that we received it at 23.976fps and that it has been speeded up + pitch adjusted by 4% to get to 25fps and then it has been flagged as interlaced, therefore it's progressive flagged as interlaced. When I see it in a broadcast reference monitor from Sony, it clearly stutters 'cause the broadcast monitor receiving the playback from Omneon through SDI just detects the properties and bobs it to 50p ('cause all displays are progressive), however, since it's actually 25p flagged as 25i, both fields are exactly the same, therefore you end up seeing duplicated frames all over the place, hence it stutters (although that's the way it's supposed to be seen by the viewers). What happens then is that if I see that very same content after it has been aired and I receive it with my Sky Q box plugged via HDMI to the Samsung TV, such a TV will see the frame properties (i.e 25i), it will detect internally that it's actually 25p flagged as 25i and it will perform motion vector calculations to bring it to 50p. Quote:
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lol, well, I do work for Sky, yeah, but I'm not really interested in buying a new consumer TV right now as I think I'm gonna wait a bit more for when 8K is gonna be supported. Some friends of mine got "punished" for being over enthusiastic about new technologies and buying a 4K TV early on in 2013, 'cause they ended up having TVs which were able to understand BT2020 but no color curve whatsoever, hence being forced to see everything at 100 nits. Luckily I wasn't one of them, but I feel like I'm gonna wait a bit more for 8K and H.266 VVC compatibility. |
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10th October 2021, 18:38 | #54 | Link | ||||
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10th October 2021, 18:58 | #55 | Link | ||
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PS: Some people call that "background drag", "ghosting". |
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10th October 2021, 19:03 | #56 | Link | ||
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10th October 2021, 22:00 | #57 | Link | |
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What the heck does 'field matching' mean to you? What does 'adaptive deint' mean to you? This is all too abstract, using 'terms' that only have meaning for you, in your head. PS: I'm sorry for showing my frustration. Can we stick to the types of videos found on DVDs and BDs, please? Otherwise, there's no end to discussion of all the possible video formats. Last edited by markfilipak; 10th October 2021 at 22:09. |
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11th October 2021, 06:56 | #59 | Link |
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no...
frist result for adaptive deint: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11582267_48 TV use this for a long time and intel, nvidia and AMD (not dual rate) have them also known as motion *compensating or frame adaptive deint. field matching: http://underpop.online.fr/f/ffmpeg/h...ldmatch.htm.gz and yes TVs do that. and is important to understand why some TVs can't like those with 60 HZ panels and other can with 120 HZ while they maybe even be able to display a 24 HZ signal correctly (sony only) but this feature is missing. it would be nice if very easy to google terms are not suppossed to be in my "head" i don't like been insulted thank you. and yes these are obviously applied to DVD, BD and alike or simple broadcast signals. |
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24hz, 60hz, hdmi, nvidia |
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