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Old 9th October 2014, 13:04   #161  |  Link
huhn
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the present times are stable for me.

it MPDN presenting 120 frame on a 120 hz screen or is it leaving this task to "aero" or directx vsync and just give it 24 frame a sec?
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Old 9th October 2014, 13:06   #162  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by ajp2k11 View Post
No dropped frames. Pretty sure present times are more than 10ms, I use Jinc upscaling and my GPU is pretty old so... not at home right now so I can't check the exact times.
are you using windows 7 without aero?
it is totally normal to get very high present times in this case was always the case with madVR.
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Old 9th October 2014, 13:18   #163  |  Link
ajp2k11
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are you using windows 7 without aero?
it is totally normal to get very high present times in this case was always the case with madVR.
Nope, using Win 8.1... not sure about my present times though, will have to check tonight.
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Old 9th October 2014, 13:22   #164  |  Link
Zachs
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@huhn

24 frame a sec but it's based on directshow "reference time", not your system time. The reference time is from your audio source, and it is rather inaccurate and it gets adjusted quite frequently but that is what MSDN's documentation asks renderers to sync to. However, the behavior is completely different for Dx9 and Dx10 render paths! So that isn't the problem there.
Did you say at some stage that it worked for you in FSE mode but not windowed?
The problem I'm seeing is completely different then. I get a period where frames keep getting dropped after switching out from FSE mode. My present time goes to 20ms and frames drop like mad.
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Old 9th October 2014, 14:08   #165  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Zachs View Post
@huhn

24 frame a sec but it's based on directshow "reference time", not your system time. The reference time is from your audio source, and it is rather inaccurate and it gets adjusted quite frequently but that is what MSDN's documentation asks renderers to sync to. However, the behavior is completely different for Dx9 and Dx10 render paths! So that isn't the problem there.
Did you say at some stage that it worked for you in FSE mode but not windowed?
The problem I'm seeing is completely different then. I get a period where frames keep getting dropped after switching out from FSE mode. My present time goes to 20ms and frames drop like mad.
so the audio clock can be a problem too? I use a ESI Prodigy X-Fi NRG R in this PC i try the onboard later can only hurt my ears.

the problem is it sometimes works so my reports are maybe totally wrong. because i didn't managed to break it in the first 5 tries.

in the last test directx 9 fullscreen and windows was the mode that can drops frames like crazy I check for the present times later but all mode showed choppy playback.
this screen I posted earlier http://abload.de/img/untitledmni96.png shows the frame dropping issue but the present times are fine in the last 5 sec.
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Old 9th October 2014, 20:00   #166  |  Link
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Nope, using Win 8.1... not sure about my present times though, will have to check tonight.
Just checked, present times below 1ms.
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Old 10th October 2014, 00:08   #167  |  Link
SamuelMaki
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Hey! I have a problem with external subtitles (.srt and .sub files at least). I do select them with directvobsub, but only the embedded subtitles work. Is this a feature/to-do or have I missed something? Embedded subtitles work just fine, and the tray icon appears, only the "open" dialog in directvobsub doesn't. Using x64 version and have x64 LAV and x64 Directvobsub installed properly.

Also the LAV-splitters choises are ignored (loading italian audio and subtitles when selected english on LAV).

Last edited by SamuelMaki; 10th October 2014 at 00:13.
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Old 10th October 2014, 02:36   #168  |  Link
Zachs
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Just a quick update for all the testers (I'm very appreciative, thank you!)

I believe there could be 2 issues here with the stuttering issue.

The first one, I have replicated on both NVIDIA and AMD GPUs. Intel GPU does not have this problem.
Namely, after coming out of FSE mode, I can't present anything for a few seconds (some times a lot longer on NVIDIA cards).
This I have attributed it to bad drivers as it is not returning from my Present() call even after I have made sure it is a new VBlank (again this happens only for a few seconds after exiting from FSE mode). The net result is you get a lot of dropped frames for that few seconds and after which Present times will go back to the sub 1ms it should be. This issue, I have implemented a workaround.

The second issue may be related to 120Hz monitors only. I am not so sure about this particular one as I don't have a 120Hz monitor to test with, but I do have a 75Hz monitor. On that monitor, I couldn't replicate the problem. It could be due to the same problem too, so give the new version (2.5.3) a try.
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Old 10th October 2014, 02:39   #169  |  Link
Zachs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelMaki View Post
Hey! I have a problem with external subtitles (.srt and .sub files at least). I do select them with directvobsub, but only the embedded subtitles work. Is this a feature/to-do or have I missed something? Embedded subtitles work just fine, and the tray icon appears, only the "open" dialog in directvobsub doesn't. Using x64 version and have x64 LAV and x64 Directvobsub installed properly.

Also the LAV-splitters choises are ignored (loading italian audio and subtitles when selected english on LAV).
External subs should work. You need to make sure the file names are exactly as per your media file except for the extension though. The other thing I would check is make sure your DirectVobSub has the external sub paths setup properly.

Regarding LAV-Splitter choices, I didn't even know there's such a thing, so I made it default to the first track for both audio and sub
I'll look into that one.
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Old 10th October 2014, 06:30   #170  |  Link
Zachs
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@huhn @ajp2k11
Can you try v2.5.3 to see if it helps with the frame drop and stuttering issues?

I have introduced a new windowed mode rendering path for both D3D9 and D3D10.
There's now an additional option in the Video Renderer settings page to choose "New windowed mode rendering path".
This "new" path is actually the one I've been using all the time (with fixes I mentioned in the earlier post), so basically I've added an "old" rendering path to MPDN.
Anyway, if you could try both old and new paths with both D3D9 and D3D10, I'd truly appreciate it!
Some systems work better with the old path in D3D9 while doesn't make a difference in D3D10 and some prefer the new path.
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Old 10th October 2014, 07:33   #171  |  Link
ajp2k11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachs View Post
@huhn @ajp2k11
Can you try v2.5.3 to see if it helps with the frame drop and stuttering issues?

I have introduced a new windowed mode rendering path for both D3D9 and D3D10.
There's now an additional option in the Video Renderer settings page to choose "New windowed mode rendering path".
This "new" path is actually the one I've been using all the time (with fixes I mentioned in the earlier post), so basically I've added an "old" rendering path to MPDN.
Anyway, if you could try both old and new paths with both D3D9 and D3D10, I'd truly appreciate it!
Some systems work better with the old path in D3D9 while doesn't make a difference in D3D10 and some prefer the new path.
I will try it when I get home tonight, thanks!
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Old 10th October 2014, 08:29   #172  |  Link
Zachs
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OK I've just tried an earlier version of NVIDIA drivers 340.52 -- it is definitely an NVIDIA drivers bug.

This is with D3D9.

Old rendering path:

With the earlier drivers, switching from FSE back to windowed mode never causes long present times but can occasionally still stutter.
Latest drivers, it blocks present() when stutter occurs - this behavior was changed from previous driver version to the current one.
However, they still haven't fixed that issue where FSE mode to windowed mode would cause long present times.

New rendering path:

Both drivers report low present() times and smoothness issue only noticeable when viewing rolling credits.

For D3D10, latest drivers can appear as if it has that pull up issue huhn mentioned when switching back to windowed from FSE mode.
Old driver is hardly noticeable.

FSE mode isn't affected by all of these.

AMD & Intel both seem happy with either rendering paths including D3D10 ones.

@huhn @ajp2k11: Can you guys verify the above and see if that's the same issue you are having?

EDIT: Just tested madVR with default settings and its behavior is exactly the same as MPDN's new rendering path for this particular issue.

Last edited by Zachs; 10th October 2014 at 11:54.
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Old 10th October 2014, 10:46   #173  |  Link
SamuelMaki
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External subs should work. You need to make sure the file names are exactly as per your media file except for the extension though. The other thing I would check is make sure your DirectVobSub has the external sub paths setup properly.

Regarding LAV-Splitter choices, I didn't even know there's such a thing, so I made it default to the first track for both audio and sub
I'll look into that one.
Tried that already, have no way to enable the external subtitles since the "subtitles" section show only embedded ones. Made the path simple and used simple filenames (same on both), but still doesn't work. When I select "no subtitles", it does show "undetermined, no subtitles" in the directvobsub window. So basically it does load the external one when chosen "no subtitles" in the player, but hides the subtitles as well?

I don't know, just a hunch :P Maybe do some simple drag and drop system for subtitles or make the open/browse dialog to work on directvobsub if you can? Seems a lot more faster than running with madVR+mpc-hc in my opinion otherwise.
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Old 10th October 2014, 10:50   #174  |  Link
Zachs
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Ah you mean that media has embedded subs and you are trying to use external sub instead right?
That's one thing I haven't anticipated. I'll take a look at that too!
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Old 10th October 2014, 10:54   #175  |  Link
SamuelMaki
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Ah you mean that media has embedded subs and you are trying to use external sub instead right?
That's one thing I haven't anticipated. I'll take a look at that too!
That's exactly what I am doing! Thanks for working on it, waiting eagerly for the fix, since this is something kinda lot of people from "smaller countries" experience when trying to watch import movies.
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Old 10th October 2014, 12:54   #176  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachs View Post
OK I've just tried an earlier version of NVIDIA drivers 340.52 -- it is definitely an NVIDIA drivers bug.

This is with D3D9.

Old rendering path:

With the earlier drivers, switching from FSE back to windowed mode never causes long present times but can occasionally still stutter.
Latest drivers, it blocks present() when stutter occurs - this behavior was changed from previous driver version to the current one.
However, they still haven't fixed that issue where FSE mode to windowed mode would cause long present times.

New rendering path:

Both drivers report low present() times and smoothness issue only noticeable when viewing rolling credits.

For D3D10, latest drivers can appear as if it has that pull up issue huhn mentioned when switching back to windowed from FSE mode.
Old driver is hardly noticeable.

FSE mode isn't affected by all of these.

AMD & Intel both seem happy with either rendering paths including D3D10 ones.

@huhn @ajp2k11: Can you guys verify the above and see if that's the same issue you are having?

EDIT: Just tested madVR with default settings and its behavior is exactly the same as MPDN's new rendering path for this particular issue.
a lot better still not always perfect. it took me awhile to run in any problems.
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Old 10th October 2014, 13:04   #177  |  Link
Zachs
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a lot better still not always perfect. it took me awhile to run in any problems.
Yeah it's an NVIDIA bug. I can reproduce the exact same problem on madVR too when switching back from FSE mode. It doesn't report present times to be high too like my new render path but you can notice jerky playback especially on rolling credits. The old rendering path of MPDN reported the true present times (only with NVIDIA's latest drivers) but that means it also tried to correct it by dropping frames, which made the situation worse. By ignoring present time (as with the older NVIDIA drivers), MPDN pretends that everything is fine. It is still not smooth with the latest drivers (blame NVIDIA), but there is nothing more that could be done from an application's perspective.

Someone needs to report the bug to NVIDIA.

EDIT: You'll notice further improvements if you switch back to geforce drivers v340.52.

@ajp2k11

I bet you have an NVIDIA card with latest drivers too?

Last edited by Zachs; 10th October 2014 at 13:15.
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Old 10th October 2014, 13:50   #178  |  Link
ajp2k11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachs View Post
Yeah it's an NVIDIA bug. I can reproduce the exact same problem on madVR too when switching back from FSE mode. It doesn't report present times to be high too like my new render path but you can notice jerky playback especially on rolling credits. The old rendering path of MPDN reported the true present times (only with NVIDIA's latest drivers) but that means it also tried to correct it by dropping frames, which made the situation worse. By ignoring present time (as with the older NVIDIA drivers), MPDN pretends that everything is fine. It is still not smooth with the latest drivers (blame NVIDIA), but there is nothing more that could be done from an application's perspective.

Someone needs to report the bug to NVIDIA.

EDIT: You'll notice further improvements if you switch back to geforce drivers v340.52.

@ajp2k11

I bet you have an NVIDIA card with latest drivers too?
Nope, I have an AMD 6650M with Catalyst 14.9 drivers but maybe it's not the same problem? I only see stuttering when using 120Hz display mode, can easily be seen when there's movement. Haven't noticed any when running in 60Hz. Not a major problem but it's nice to be able to use 120Hz since it's a multiple of 24. I'll try and provide some better debug info this weekend...
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Old 10th October 2014, 18:03   #179  |  Link
Zachs
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Is that on the latest version of mpdn though?
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Old 10th October 2014, 20:14   #180  |  Link
ajp2k11
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Is that on the latest version of mpdn though?
Nope, I'll try the new version this weekend... thanks!
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