madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by LordX2

I am going to be building a new htpc soon for another location. Could you elaborate a bit for me on the AMD stuff?

As huhn said, they appear to have a competitive card out now in the 6800 XT. But we don't know yet what the real benchmarks will be or how it would perform in madvr. One can surmise that it would do quite well based on what we've seen so far. It's something to keep an eye on.

The only caveat I PERSONALLY have is that I hold out hope that at some point we may see tensor core algorithms but most people shouldn't care for several reasons. First, they don't exist today. Second, there's a very real chance that they won't make it to madvr and will instead be exclusive to the Envy. So making a choice of video card today based on a hypothetical future thing that has a low probability of happening is not something 99.9% of people should be doing. They should instead look at the best bang for buck and that really could be AMD right now. We'll know more soon.

[Manni]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

As huhn said, they appear to have a competitive card out now in the 6800 XT. But we don't know yet what the real benchmarks will be or how it would perform in madvr. One can surmise that it would do quite well based on what we've seen so far. It's something to keep an eye on.

The only caveat I PERSONALLY have is that I hold out hope that at some point we may see tensor core algorithms but most people shouldn't care for several reasons. First, they don't exist today. Second, there's a very real chance that they won't make it to madvr and will instead be exclusive to the Envy. So making a choice of video card today based on a hypothetical future thing that has a low probability of happening is not something 99.9% of people should be doing. They should instead look at the best bang for buck and that really could be AMD right now. We'll know more soon.

tensor cores are not the only reason to think twice before going for amd. nvidia is the only way to set the bt2020 flag for those who use this to select a sdr bt2020 calibration automatically in their display, using an hd fury or not.

sorry but in a vm and no caps. will correct later

[huhn]

AGS has an option for this but i'm not sure it can only be used with HDR.
so madshi has to nearly for sure update the API and that doesn't mean it works...
and it's been a while since the last update.

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by Manni

tensor cores are not the only reason to think twice before going for amd. nvidia is the only way to set the bt2020 flag for those who use this to select a sdr bt2020 calibration automatically in their display, using an hd fury or not.

sorry but in a vm and no caps. will correct later

This is true. I don't calibrate SDR to bt2020 on my C8 so I always forget that people do this.

[Manni]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

This is true. I don't calibrate SDR to bt2020 on my C8 so I always forget that people do this.

It’s not for SDR, it’s to tonemap HDR to SDR (BT2020 or P3). You use this when using pixel shader tonemapping. If you use HDR passthrough, it usually doesn’t matter as an HDR calibration is selected.

[SamuriHL]

Right, yes I remember why people use it but as I output HDR on my C8 I don't have need to use that particular flag and forget that some people do.

[LordX2]

Finally sat down and just enjoyed watching some movies.

Using Beta 113

I feel like I have my PEAK nits set right - bright scenes are BRIGHT - and look amazing!

DARK scenes also look good, blacks are not washed out etc.

It's the 'middle' scenes that seem..... too dark to me... almost like my eyes feel 'strained' while watching. Is this something that the dynamic nits setting could help? Right now I am running 100 peak, 50 dynamic. If I upped it to 60, would that increase or decrease average brightness? Or is it inversely related to brightness like peak nits?

[SamuriHL]

It will impact everything. It can be tough to dial it in just right. You'll have to play with the dynamic setting to find the right mix. Also the curve you set has a lot to do with it, too, which is why those curves are in there. That's one of the things that was being tested with that build. And while there are a few curves that are popular, no one agreed on just one curve. And it wasn't even separated by PJ vs panel owners, either. It was varied across the board on what people liked. So yea, it's going to be tough to get a perfect PQ, but, you can get it pretty close.

[nsnhd]

I think the right way is that you have to set the peak to the maximum real nits of the display and use the dynamic to adjust the HDR effect, is that correct ?

[SamuriHL]

That's how it's supposed to work, yes. By telling madvr the real display nits of your display, it can tone map everything up to that max. The dynamic setting impacts the overall brightness, the HDR effect, as you put it. You don't necessarily want to lie to madvr about the real display nits, although some people do for various reasons.

[LordX2]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

It will impact everything. It can be tough to dial it in just right. You'll have to play with the dynamic setting to find the right mix. Also the curve you set has a lot to do with it, too, which is why those curves are in there. That's one of the things that was being tested with that build. And while there are a few curves that are popular, no one agreed on just one curve. And it wasn't even separated by PJ vs panel owners, either. It was varied across the board on what people liked. So yea, it's going to be tough to get a perfect PQ, but, you can get it pretty close.

That was my final question (curve related) - I tried posting it on the HDR to SDR thread but no answer:

If I set the Contrast Recovery option to disabled - am I using just the straight BT.2390 curve? I wanted to try with nothing to get a 'baseline' and then see from there.

I gotta say, with it (contrast recovery) set to disabled, it looks amazing. My Sony 285ES has pretty good contrast setting adjustments already - so I am wondering if I need any contrast 'recovery' at all...

Like I said on the other post, the black levels are amazing. When I am watching widescreen, and someone has a black cloak for example, I can't tell the difference between their cloak and the 'black bars' at the bottom. If I pause just right, I can't even make out the line where the black bar starts.

It's really just the median brightness, so I hope playing with dynamic nits can get that tuned in right.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Originally Posted by LordX2

That was my final question (curve related) - I tried posting it on the HDR to SDR thread but no answer:

If I set the Contrast Recovery option to disabled - am I using just the straight BT.2390 curve? I wanted to try with nothing to get a 'baseline' and then see from there.

I gotta say, with it (contrast recovery) set to disabled, it looks amazing. My Sony 285ES has pretty good contrast setting adjustments already - so I am wondering if I need any contrast 'recovery' at all...

Like I said on the other post, the black levels are amazing. When I am watching widescreen, and someone has a black cloak for example, I can't tell the difference between their cloak and the 'black bars' at the bottom. If I pause just right, I can't even make out the line where the black bar starts.

It's really just the median brightness, so I hope playing with dynamic nits can get that tuned in right.

To get a little more "median brightness" try a few different gamma settings and see what looks best for you. After some experimenting I've settled on the settings below for my JVC X790 (Natural picture mode, BT.2020 color profile, 7500K color temp, Normal gamma) which seems to provide a great balance in terms of darks and brights. Some may cry heresy (and perhaps there's room for a couple more tweaks as I'm still learning myself), but these settings look great to my eyes.

Under "hdr" I've settled on the following:

display peak luminance: 100
desaturate 1
color tweaks for fire & explosions: disabled
highlight recovery: high
contrast recovery: Soulnight's Mirror
shadow recovery: disabled
dynamic target nits: 110
no compr limit: 120
disable avgHighlights ceiling: checked

Everything else under "hdr" left at default.

Under "calibration" of the device properties I'm now using "BT.709/601 curve" where it says "the display is calibrated to the following transfer function /gamma" and with a setting of 2.20.

Under "color & gamma" I have "enable gamma processing" checked and set to "pure power curve" at 2.20.

Now, it's possible I may be doing a couple of things that aren't entirely necessary or recommended (and your mileage may vary due to having a different display that's calibrated differently), but the end result for me is one of the most stunning images I've seen from this projector.

[LordX2]

Thank you for the tips!!

What exactly does 'highlight recovery' do? I saw some mentions of it in passing - but never an in depth explanation.

I will try the calibration settings and see if that makes any difference!

PS - Does the calibration setting change 1080p content too? My 1080p stuff is spot on, so I wouldn't want to change that.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Originally Posted by LordX2

Thank you for the tips!!

What exactly does 'highlight recovery' do? I saw some mentions of it in passing - but never an in depth explanation.

I will try the calibration settings and see if that makes any difference!

PS - Does the calibration setting change 1080p content too? My 1080p stuff is spot on, so I wouldn't want to change that.

Highlight recovery simply sharpens up the HDR highlights so that they're a little bit more defined after range compression.

Here is a link that gives an example. It's a subtle improvement but it's there (the lightning isn't as sharp when highlight recovery is set to none):

None: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3GJ
Medium: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3Gx

Other settings with examples:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1840876

[Asmodian]

highlight recovery sharpens highlight details, trying to improve the visibility of highlight details after they are compressed into the small brightness range used for highlights.

[LordX2]

Originally Posted by *MidnightWatcher*

Highlight recovery simply sharpens up the HDR highlights so that they're a little bit more defined after range compression.

Here is a link that gives an example. It's a subtle improvement but it's there (the lightning isn't as sharp when highlight recovery is set to none):

None: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3GJ
Medium: http://upload.vstanced.com/image/A3Gx

Other settings with examples:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1840876

Those images are great references!

Do the calibration settings effect all sources played? Or just the 4k HDR stuff?

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Originally Posted by LordX2

Those images are great references!

Do the calibration settings effect all sources played? Or just the 4k HDR stuff?

Just the 4K HDR stuff (tone mapping using pixel shaders). SDR is not affected by the HDR settings, but would be affected by the gamma settings.

[LordX2]

Ok, I gave that a shot.... wow... the gamma boost really made a difference on the darker scenes. I was using star trek beyond as a random sample, and in one scene where I paused with people running through a hallway, it seemed almost entirely dark. When gamma was enabled, I could see the corridor walls and details that were just dark before!

Now, a side effect of the gamma boost is that I can see 'noise' in some scenes. I don't know if the noise is always there, and now that gamma boost is enabled I can 'see' it, or if the gamma boost introduced the noise.

I tried the different dithering settings, and even the noise reduction settings, but it looks like the noise is something I am going to have to live with as all of those settings were hitting above max for my little gtx 1650 super.

Bright scenes are not impacted, or I have not noticed the noise on them yet.

Gamma also reduces the appearance of blacks, so I went back to soulnights mirror to get some of the contrast recovery.

So I have to watch some stuff and come to the decision whether actually seeing stuff with noise is better than not seeing the stuff at all.

I am a big fan of brightness though (quite literally, I never even wear sunglasses). So I feel like if this solves my eye strain during mid level scenes, it is worth it.

Thank you again for the suggestion!

PS - if you have some ideas about the noise, I am all ears - just limited with the hardware. All sources I use for testing are 4k remux.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

You can try adjusting "pure power curve" a few steps, from 2.20 to 2.25 to 2.30. This will lower the brightness slightly, see if there is a setting that gives you a good balance somewhere without sacrificing shadow detail. I'm set on the settings shared above as it strikes a good balance on my projector.

Usually the noise is in the source material. I rip all of my 4K titles and store them 1:1, so no compression artifacts and "noise" unless it's inherently in the video itself. Brightening the picture up may just make some of it a little more visible.

[tzr916]

Originally Posted by tzr916

What madvr version and options, or nvidia drivers work best to eliminate (or minimize) FSE black screen?

Using JriverMC for watching Live Tv and recorded shows (ts files), that are mixture of 1080p or 720p mpeg2 or h264, USA ATSC broadcast and cable. Upscaling everything to 2160p60.

With FSE enabled, about 1 out of 5 times, when starting live tv or file playback, the Tv screen stays all black, sound plays to AVR (bitstream). Only way to correct it, is to stop playback and re-start it. Once FSE locks in, the screen never goes black again, until starting a new video or changing tv channel.

Originally Posted by VBB

The best answer is, don't use FSE. Use FS windowed instead. If you absolutely must use FSE, right-click on your media player shortcut/executable -> Properties -> Compatibility -> check "Disable fullscreen optimizations".

During my experiments with the new GTX1660, seems I had changed the "number of frames to present in advance" to 16. So I rolled it back to 8, and so far have yet to encounter black screen, even when channel changing.