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Old 22nd November 2016, 10:51   #40561  |  Link
Backflash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unr3aL View Post
[/LIST]And finally, Anti-Ringing is said to be included in NGU, but which of the ARs is/are the one/s to be disabled?
Reduce ringing artifacts can stay, I guess (different to anti-ringing)?
AR in image downscaling?
AR in image upscaling?
AR in upscaling refinement?
Any other AR?

Honestly, there are so many anti-ringing checkboxes, that I don't know, which are redundant, which are overkill or which are plain useless...
This is what i'm also confused about, with SR it's obvious when you disable it. But AR is very source dependent I'd have to check so many samples to know exactly which one works or not with NGU.

I'm not sure about weeding them out, but maybe condensing it in one category.
Or to simply grey out options that do not work/create too many artifacts with NGU(or any other algorithm) but not remove them for other algos.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 10:55   #40562  |  Link
leeperry
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Indeed, I'm also unsure about the downscaler's AR and I think it harms PQ when SR2 LL's AR is engaged, need to run moar tests I guess.

There's also the story of whether feeding C-R with a sharper picture or Bicubic 100+ / SSIM 1D with a softer one, more tests to be conducted again.

Last edited by leeperry; 22nd November 2016 at 15:26.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 10:58   #40563  |  Link
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As a non-expert user it took me quite awhile to finally be able to use the new algorithm properly and I want to apologize for asking the same question that so many people have asked before, should've read before commenting.

My experience so far is that the new algorithm is freaking awesome. I tried to push my GPU to the very limit and oh boy is it sharp. I use NGU-med for luma doubling to upscale a 720p anime to 1080p. When the animation moves too fast the sharpness is not as obvious but I think that is due to the artifacts and details lost during the downscaling process, but when the animation is still it is so sharp as if it is a 1080p video in the first place.

I also tried to use NGU-med for chroma upscaling and I think it looks quite a lot sharper than before when I used NNEDI32+SR1. I even turned off adaptive sharpen and I really don't see the image gets any less sharp than having it on. Thank you mashi for this incredible new algorithm!
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Old 22nd November 2016, 11:20   #40564  |  Link
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I also tried to use NGU-med for chroma upscaling and I think it looks quite a lot sharper than before when I used NNEDI32+SR1
It is, it's too much for me even on low, we'll see how it ends up after it's been improved some.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 11:48   #40565  |  Link
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Why would it be too sharp? I think if we did a ground truth comparison for chroma, it should come closer to it than any other non-reconstruction based scaler.
But I agree that there may be other crucial factors in reality with chroma, aka distracting ringing in sources. But the same goes for luma, I personally won't blur everything just to mask the artifacts.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 12:09   #40566  |  Link
jerryleungwh
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It is, it's too much for me even on low, we'll see how it ends up after it's been improved some.
Personally I think the extra sharpness looks really nice so I'm okay with it the way it is now
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Old 22nd November 2016, 12:18   #40567  |  Link
Backflash
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Personally I think the extra sharpness looks really nice so I'm okay with it the way it is now
I also love it sharp, but i'm legally blind, so yeah, everything must be over sharpened hell for me to enjoy.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 12:42   #40568  |  Link
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Some more testing:

I exchanged my RX480 with my GTX1060 from my gaming pc.

With same settings and NGU high I can run 1080p to UHD with 34ms (GTX). With RX480 i got 48ms.

So I will stay with the GTX1060 until NGU got a better performance on my RX480.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 12:53   #40569  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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By the way madshi, do you think you could add a way to toggle rather than just activate a specific profile, or alternatively add a hotkey to switch back to automatic detection? Maybe just turn 'activate' into 'toggle' so it switches the profile off if it's already been manually activated. I've set up a bunch of profiles for my laptop that I activate when I have to unplug it (so watching video doesn't drain power like crazy), but right now the only way to switch back is to reopen the video. Alternatively if you could add detection for when the device has AC power, that would be great too

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 22nd November 2016 at 13:37.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 13:38   #40570  |  Link
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Some more testing:
With same settings and NGU high I can run 1080p to UHD with 34ms (GTX). With RX480 i got 48ms.
I think, 34 ms is still too slow.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 14:25   #40571  |  Link
Uoppi
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Ah, I missed the earlier post(s) concerning AR confusion before posting my own.

Well, I'm sort of relieved I'm not the only one who's a bit confused (again). I'd take the "NGU for everything" route just to keep things simple (and due to serious lack of testing time) but different options may of course interact in so many ways.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 15:18   #40572  |  Link
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I think, 34 ms is still too slow.
34 ms is not too slow for 1080p24 to UHD. As long as your queues don't go empty, it does not make a difference.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 15:40   #40573  |  Link
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34 ms is not too slow for 1080p24 to UHD. As long as your queues don't go empty, it does not make a difference.
Interesting. I get dropped frames. I am not sure if this is related to empty queues. I upscale 1080p24 and 1080p60 to 4Kp60.

Yesterday I discovered something that is weird. I played a movie that showed 24 fps (source) and after changing some settings in madvr it changed to 59 fps. Why is this?

Last edited by HillieSan; 22nd November 2016 at 15:43.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 15:49   #40574  |  Link
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Originally Posted by HillieSan View Post
Interesting. I get dropped frames. I am not sure if this is related to empty queues. I upscale 1080p24 and 1080p60 to 4Kp60.

Yesterday I discovered something that is weird. I played a movie that showed 24 fps (source) and after changing some settings in madvr it changed to 59 fps. Why is this?
Are you using smooth motion or motion interpolation? Obviously if you play something at 60 fps that requires a lot lower average render time. Personally I dislike any motion interpolation and would just have the display swap refresh rate to match the source frame rate. If you're using HDMI it's also impossible to use UHD 4:4:4 10 bit at 60 fps, I believe it will fallback to 8-bit.

Increasing queue size will not help in your case, it might help if you rarely get a few dropped frames.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 16:02   #40575  |  Link
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Are you using smooth motion or motion interpolation? Obviously if you play something at 60 fps that requires a lot lower average render time. Personally I dislike any motion interpolation and would just have the display swap refresh rate to match the source frame rate. If you're using HDMI it's also impossible to use UHD 4:4:4 10 bit at 60 fps, I believe it will fallback to 8-bit.

Increasing queue size will not help in your case, it might help if you rarely get a few dropped frames.
I use bluesky FRC to prevent the judder. I do not use smooth motion. I will experiment if a display swap to match the source frame rate will solve this problem.

I use 4:2:0 10 bits (or 12 bits)

Last edited by HillieSan; 22nd November 2016 at 16:43.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 16:39   #40576  |  Link
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Turns out SR does add bloat(and SR's AB was removed for some reason I didn't understand IIRC) but SSIM 2D 100% LL with 50% AB tackles the issue very nicely, all roads lead to Rome yada yada ^^

I rest my case that SR LL's AR doesn't require downscaler's AR as the latter only worsens PQ, I ran all those tests on lowres SD(who knew 360x288@1080p could look so good!). I think 720p30 looks indeed better with vanilla NGU w/o SR, anyway my HD7850 doesn't quite have the horsepower to run it all together with SSIM on 720p so case closed. I'm reluctant to upgrade coz 280/290 boards provides poor efficiency, suck up a lot of power and 480's need a 64bit OS that I don't have and seem to provide poor NGU performance, anyway PQ is fantastic so the upgraditis monster can go back to where it came from

Last edited by leeperry; 22nd November 2016 at 16:52.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 16:41   #40577  |  Link
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I use bluesky FRC to prevent the judder. I do not use smooth motion. I will experiment if a display swap to match the source frame rate will solve this problem.
I have enabled "switch to match display mode" and I disabled blysky frc. Now image doubling isn't working!! The render time goes up to 3 ms with NGU high and present goes to 25 ms or higher. Changing the luma doubling setting doesn't change anything. Am I missing something?

UPDATE: Of course, this keeps the display to 1080p and no image doubling is performed. My mistake.

UPDATE: Changing the frequency of the display from 60p to 24p doesn't help.

Last edited by HillieSan; 22nd November 2016 at 17:04.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 16:42   #40578  |  Link
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Smooth motion adds a lot of overhead for UltraHD output, thankfully you can detect it using a (smoothMotion) profile rule (it doesn't work without the parentheses) so I've set up a separate profile for it that doesn't use expensive scalers.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 16:50   #40579  |  Link
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RX 480 on Win 7 x64 with 16.10.3, 720x480 movie doubling (luma only), SXBR100 for chroma, No de-ringing and no SR.

NNEDI3-64: ~6.48ms ~8.1% GPU load
NGU High: ~8.45ms ~24.1% GPU load

Same GPU\Memory clocks in both cases. So, yeah, NGU is quite hungrier than NNEDI3.

madshi, I'm interested so see how it performs on D3D11 shaders.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 17:41   #40580  |  Link
Gagorian
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Originally Posted by HillieSan View Post
I have enabled "switch to match display mode" and I disabled blysky frc. Now image doubling isn't working!! The render time goes up to 3 ms with NGU high and present goes to 25 ms or higher. Changing the luma doubling setting doesn't change anything. Am I missing something?

UPDATE: Of course, this keeps the display to 1080p and no image doubling is performed. My mistake.

UPDATE: Changing the frequency of the display from 60p to 24p doesn't help.
Set display to switch to 2160p23 (p23 for 23,976 hz).
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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