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Old 17th December 2019, 11:32   #461  |  Link
huhn
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it's simple math you can't put 24 frames in 60.
and i can just repeat my self yet again sonys can do 4:4:4 even with frame interpolation so you can get 44.4: and ruin your image at the same time.

this shouldn't be something special PC screen can do that too.
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Old 17th December 2019, 14:01   #462  |  Link
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sonys can do 4:4:4 even with frame interpolation so you can get 44.4: and ruin your image at the same time.
What SONY's did you try? B8 is often on sale down to 850€, SONY's are much pricier and I'm not too keen on dropping extra benji's for 444

I'm also under the impression that improvements in the C/9 series are quite irrelevant for mVR use?
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Old 17th December 2019, 15:26   #463  |  Link
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just ask rtings.

the 120 hz thing could be huge on the C9. at least madshi likes the idea of native 120 hz. he talked about madVR site adaptive BFI many years ago.

LG are well know to handle HDR sub optimal the panasonic is better there but has pretty much the same price as the sony. the sony is also known to handle banding better something the LG is not great at but i have my disbelieves in the sony too.

the 55 are usually a lot more price for the sonys in the 65 range they are not that far apart.

sonys are far from perfect to not having HDMI 2.1 for that price is a disgrace and i wouldn't be shocked if the next years model doesn't have it too. VVR support which is most likely something you are not interested in is something sony totally ignored. but custom 96 hz BFI is possibile with it
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Old 17th December 2019, 16:17   #464  |  Link
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As for "Are you sure that it is the case? Did LG do it with a firmware upgrade?"
I have had that TV since 2016 , always had HDR (w/4K) via HDMI
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Old 17th December 2019, 17:57   #465  |  Link
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Wouldn't you always have dithering on when testing? It seems weird to test with it disabled if you have it enabled for playback (of course, you always have it enabled for playback).

I have no idea how my TV looks without dithering, but if madVR dithering to 8 bit has less banding than sending the TV dithered 10 bit isn't that the better mode regardless of what it looks like with dithering disabled?

The results without dithering are very interesting when trying to understand the TV's video processing but what is important for watching is the results with dithering enabled.
That's what I was trying to do. And to me, it now looks like the combination of Nvidia YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit, madVR 0-255 10-bit, TV Black Level low, non-PC mode, results in a smoothness that none of the other combos can match, regardless of what madVR's dithering is set to.

Would you be willing to confirm that with your C9?
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Old 17th December 2019, 23:06   #466  |  Link
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Would you be willing to confirm that with your C9?
HDR or SDR? Both?

Dithering on or off?
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Old 17th December 2019, 23:48   #467  |  Link
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I just did another couple of hours of testing. Turns out for 4:2:2, Nvidia sends 12-bit regardless of the chosen bit rate. Even when set to 8-bit it sends a 12-bit signal. But, what is set in the driver does make a difference. 8-bit has lots of banding, much more than with 4:4:4 or RGB. There is also a very small difference between 10 and 12-bit, with 10-bit looking ever so slightly better when judging various gradients.

It also depends on what bit rate madVR is set to. That's what makes testing this tedious. There seems to be a bug in madVR still, where sometimes, when set to 10-bit, it switches to 8-bit, and once it does that you have to reboot Windows in order to get it back into 10-bit mode. Had me question my sanity until I realized what was going on, because only when in 10-bit does 4:2:2 look the absolute smoothest out of all combos.

Went through PC mode as well again tonight. I gotta say that YCbCr 4:4:4 8-bit throughout the chain actually looks fairly decent in HDR, and pretty smooth in SDR. Add dithering back in, and perhaps a bit of "reduce banding artifacts", and it's the best choice if you can't live without PC mode.

As Asmodian pointed out earlier, things might be (slightly) different with the newer LGs, so it's always best to do your own testing.
I've, for now, settled on 422 10 bit (in a 12 bit gift box LOL). It does look pretty good. Not without some issues, but, everything on these panels seems to be a compromise one way or the other. So for me, this is what I'll use for now.
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Old 17th December 2019, 23:51   #468  |  Link
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HDR or SDR? Both?

Dithering on or off?
Both.

Dithering on because that's what we use in real life. I get the whole wanting to test without dithering to see how badly screwed up the panels are, but, we know they're messed up. So you could test with both I suppose but ultimately the most useful is with it on.
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Old 18th December 2019, 00:36   #469  |  Link
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I have a C9 connected to RTX 2060. It seems the Nvidia control panel is stuck to 8bit @ 2160p. Is this a limitation of the GPU? Or maybe there's a better setting that would allow greater than 8bit settings?
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Old 18th December 2019, 00:41   #470  |  Link
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Definitely test both SDR and HDR with both dithering off and on. Dithering will mask the worst banding, but why wouldn't you want to see what looks best before turning dithering back on? I did not come across a mode where dithering made it look better than another mode which already looked better without dithering? Does that makes sense?
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Old 18th December 2019, 00:47   #471  |  Link
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@Magik Mark - At 60Hz, your choices for greater than 8-bit are limited to YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit/12-bit or YCbCr 4:2:0 12-bit. At lower frequencies, you can also use YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB 12-bit.
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Old 18th December 2019, 00:58   #472  |  Link
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@Magik Mark - At 60Hz, your choices for greater than 8-bit are limited to YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit/12-bit or YCbCr 4:2:0 12-bit. At lower frequencies, you can also use YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB 12-bit.
Oh! Thanks. I configured it at 60hz 2160p RGB full
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Old 18th December 2019, 01:28   #473  |  Link
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Yea, this is where HDMI 2.1 comes in....it can do 60Hz at higher bit depths. We lowly HDMI 2.0 users...can't.
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Old 18th December 2019, 02:09   #474  |  Link
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Yea, this is where HDMI 2.1 comes in....it can do 60Hz at higher bit depths. We lowly HDMI 2.0 users...can't.
Can Nvidia support this through software upgrade on its GPUs? 2060 Perhaps?
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Old 18th December 2019, 04:34   #475  |  Link
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That's not very likely and I'm not entirely sure it's even possible. Quite a few people (cough cough nevcariel LOL) are waiting for HDMI 2.1 cards before they even consider upgrading. Envy is said to be getting a hardware upgrade when 2.1 cards are available (it's based on the RTX 2080TI I believe). So, it's very unlikely that the current cards will be HDMI 2.1 upgradable in any real way.
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Old 18th December 2019, 07:00   #476  |  Link
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They can only offer new software features like HDMI VRR, or back in the day they added 4:2:0 support to HDMI 1.4 cards, but anything that requires a higher bandwidth will require new hardware.

Hopefully 2020 is the year of HDMI 2.1
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Old 18th December 2019, 13:46   #477  |  Link
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Yes, the screen has proper 4:4:4 in PC mode. Other pixel artifacts do not mean it is not "proper 4:4:4" it just means it has other pixel artifacts.
As you wish

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I just did another couple of hours of testing. Turns out for 4:2:2, Nvidia sends 12-bit regardless of the chosen bit rate. Even when set to 8-bit it sends a 12-bit signal. But, what is set in the driver does make a difference. 8-bit has lots of banding, much more than with 4:4:4 or RGB. There is also a very small difference between 10 and 12-bit, with 10-bit looking ever so slightly better when judging various gradients.

It also depends on what bit rate madVR is set to. That's what makes testing this tedious. There seems to be a bug in madVR still, where sometimes, when set to 10-bit, it switches to 8-bit, and once it does that you have to reboot Windows in order to get it back into 10-bit mode. Had me question my sanity until I realized what was going on, because only when in 10-bit does 4:2:2 look the absolute smoothest out of all combos.
Interesting, thanks!

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these panel run at 100 or 120 hz adn you can't BFI using a backlight because there is no backlight so you have to send real black frames.
LG's 2019 panels are running 240Hz (older 2018/2017 panels are 120Hz), but BFI only at 120Hz (that's supposed to be one of the key features of the 2019 models, but they didn't add it at the end, probably due to chrominance overshoot issue, that just got attention around that time).
Maybe next year models

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444 is not manageable on TV's IME due to this constraint, I'll trade full chroma for post-processing anytime.
That means no PC mode for you on an LG.

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just ask rtings.
Doesn't work all the time (E.g. they state that LG can do proper 4:4:4, not mentioning any pixel "artifacts".)

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LG are well know to handle HDR sub optimal the panasonic is better there but has pretty much the same price as the sony. the sony is also known to handle banding better something the LG is not great at
This is on the overpriced Panasonic GZ2000.
Sony has other issues as well, just watch Vincent's recent comparison.
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Old 18th December 2019, 14:09   #478  |  Link
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interesting i'm not even aware of a internal connector that can send 240hz UHD.
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Old 18th December 2019, 19:08   #479  |  Link
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the 120 hz thing could be huge on the C9. at least madshi likes the idea of native 120 hz. he talked about madVR site adaptive BFI many years ago.
Apparently even C9 won't accept 2160p120 over HDMI: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

It seems that C8 was already able to do 120Hz FI: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled

BFI calls for much faster refresh rates AFAIK so this is kind of a moot point I think.

So basically the diff between B & C is a better upscaling engine? Kinda pointless with mVR?

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That means no PC mode for you on an LG.
So what's an OLED that does 444 w/ postprocessing please? Hopefully from 2018 so I can get it on sales
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Old 18th December 2019, 19:23   #480  |  Link
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Doesn't work all the time (E.g. they state that LG can do proper 4:4:4, not mentioning any pixel "artifacts".)
I am still confused why you connect these? Of course RTings does not mention pixel artifacts as part of chroma subsampling, they are not related in anyway.

These kind of pixel artifacts are the result of the panel, not the processing chip that is responsible for processing chroma. Turning off PC mode does not make them go away. These artifacts are not chroma subsampling artifacts. They are simply unrelated to chroma sampling.

Really, why are these connected in your mind?
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