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Old 27th December 2020, 05:37   #1261  |  Link
aron7awol
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I don't actually see any saturation issues on our high-nit displays. I prefer desat i 1 only, no dumb. Is there some specific content that you guys have seen saturation issues with, even with our ~1000 nit DPLs?

I did some extensive testing with BvS and I definitely preferred NOT checking "disable avghighlights ceiling". I find the ceiling is a good thing, as it prevents DTN from kicking in too strongly. I really liked this combined with 75 DTN.

DPL 1000
DTN 75
unchecked "disable avshighlights ceiling"
desat i 1 only
Pretty much everything else disabled.
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Old 27th December 2020, 07:29   #1262  |  Link
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Hey Aron, welcome here!
What about the new killer feature "don't add DPL" ? That's the biggest change for us since DTN was invented!
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Old 27th December 2020, 15:42   #1263  |  Link
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Are you able to use it without overblowing the brightness?

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Old 27th December 2020, 17:06   #1264  |  Link
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I haven't tried the "don't add DPL" feature yet. It sounds like maybe there is a bug and it isn't working right, but it's not really a big deal. It mostly just makes it a bit more consistent to dial in DTN across different DPLs, and if you guys settled on using a particular DTN before, you'll probably have to experiment to find your new DTN setting with that box checked. But in my testing I really liked the avghighlights ceiling kicking in when it did. It kind of makes DTN a bit less important if DTN is set high enough to hit that ceiling in a lot of cases, but in scenes that don't hit the ceiling there are still noticeable differences between different DTN settings, especially lower ones like 50 vs 75.

Trying to figure out what is highlights and putting a ceiling on the TM target always made sense to me in principle, especially on high-nit displays. It essentially avoids unnecessarily dimming the overall picture for highlights only, but still will dim the picture if the whole scene is really bright and it's not just highlights, and in that scenario we need to dim the picture to fit it all in with good detail. This results in a much more consistent experience as far as brightness, especially on a high-nit display that can really handle 95% of the scenes out there without having to dim the overall picture, and only when we have scenes that the whole scene is pushing the limits do we need to dim everything (which ABL would likely do anyway).
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Old 27th December 2020, 21:31   #1265  |  Link
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I agree, and that's why the new feature that you and neo-xp asked for does the same thing.
Check that box and set 60 DTN (I used 55 without it previously) and try out different scenes/movies/tv shows. Don't forget that with high DPL (e.g. 1000) DTN is not used at all if the measured peak is below the set DTN.
The result is just amazing! No more unnecessary dimming with low FALL titles!
My opinion is that this is how it should have worked from the beginning! And that means we watched the wrong images in the last 1.5 years!

And here's a riddle for you guys: try to figure out what formula the DTN "algo" uses
But seriously, ask madshi about it, because it's insane that we have to fool around something to try to figure out how it should work...
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Old 27th December 2020, 22:33   #1266  |  Link
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If any of you have the SM disc, here's what I want you to do.....set your favorite settings, whatever you want. Now, play the 1000 nit version of the demo file and go to 6:04. You'll see a little croc on some rocks. To the upper left there's some yellow and black mixed in with the rocks. Now check it out in the 10000 nit version. Do they look the same?
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Old 27th December 2020, 22:36   #1267  |  Link
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Well, I just felt that eliminating DPL from the calculation made for more consistent DTN results across different DPLs. I made a spreadsheet when we were discussing it so I could compare the results with both formulas. Even with it eliminated, I still feel the avgHL ceiling is beneficial, as it adds some additional intelligence as far as when to dim the whole image.

I'm glad to hear it seems to be working for you though, maybe there is no bug after all.

madshi alluded to there being a slight tweak to the formula, but didn't share it, so I got the feeling he didn't want to for whatever reason.

After my recent testing and posts in the AVS thread, I'm also thinking don't desat might actually be a reasonable option for us TMing to 1000 nits.

Last edited by aron7awol; 27th December 2020 at 22:45.
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Old 27th December 2020, 23:56   #1268  |  Link
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We don't know whether there's a bug or not because we don't know how it's supposed to work
Maybe asking him via PM is more fruitful.
I think desat2 is needed even for us, again, these options don't do much when frame peak is below DPL, but when it's above then we have the same issue as the projector guys.

avgHL ceiling is interesting, never played with that one. Here's a bit historical overview:
- it was created by soulnight along with the FALL algo (DTN) for pj users
- madshi modified the original DTN algo and stated that this option is maybe not needed anymore
I think this option works the most when there's high FALL so "higlights" are not even. But when we got only couple of small light source it doesn't do much.
But again, we don't know how he defined "highlights"...

@SamuriHL, I don't have the 1000 version, if you can upload it then I can check.
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Old 28th December 2020, 00:05   #1269  |  Link
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Well I think we know how it's supposed to work close enough to know if there's a bug or not. The difference between what we calculate based on the "known" DTN formula and what madVR reports has been very close.

I'm not referring to frame peaks below DPL, of course saturation is irrelevant in those cases as it doesn't tone map. But the scenes I tested in BvS and MMFR all had peaks well above DPL, and less desaturation looked better. Then I tested MMFR with the LG TM and madVR with the different desat options and don't desat was closest to LG's approach, and it not only looked better but also matches the non-TM version best. Now maybe a small amount of saturation (less than 100% desat 1) would be the best balance, I'll have to test more.

I believe highlights are defined as everything >100 nits for the avgHL calcs.
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Old 28th December 2020, 01:09   #1270  |  Link
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"highlights are defined as everything >100 nits for the avgHL calcs"

I hope not (don't think so), because when the whole content is shifted (like The Meg, SM 10000 demo, etc) it wouldn't work. That's what I meant how he defined it.
But maybe that option is useful indeed, I also have to play with it and see, but with normal content and not with demos

About desat2, you saw the discussion over there, it's not that simple. I think James is right, fire should be yellow not the nonTM version!
And I wonder whether your CX acts the same with TM as our 2018 models
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Old 28th December 2020, 04:18   #1271  |  Link
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I did some testing with The Meg, and I actually preferred it with the ceiling in most shots. Obviously this stuff comes down to personal preference, but I actually am really liking when it is kicking in, it makes the image look more realistic to me, while without the ceiling it dims too much and no longer looks like an outdoor scene. Or as another example inside the elevator, with the ceiling there is a really good balance between the brightness of the light and the brightness of the walls and people, it looks realistic, but without the ceiling, it dims and the light is still really bright but everything else is too dim relative to it. FWIW, I did a bunch of A/B comparisons for my wife from The Meg, who has no idea what I was even doing other than just asking her which she preferred, and she chose the ceiling every time. The same happened earlier today when I did the same with some stuff from BvS. So all in all, I'm liking it and I actually think it was tunable rather than just 2xavgHL it could be really great and useful even for people that might prefer a bit dimmer than me but could still take advantage of the ceiling. I have similar feelings as you just described with the DTN algo tweak: no more unnecessary dimming!

Yeah, the desat/hue stuff is a whole other can of worms, and I actually think that the choices for TMing to 1000 nits or 100 nits maybe should be drastically different. It's almost as if the hue shift helps offset the flatness of the heavy compression when going down to 100 nits, which does seem potentially desirable. But for us and TMing to 1000 nits, I actually preferred the no or very little desat approach, and I think having ~1000 nits to throw at it is the difference there. Because while everything looks pretty flat in my terrible photos in that thread, having that fire with ~1000 nits it looks totally not flat and lively and realistic. FWIW, my Sony does shift some of the fire to yellow even with its 1000 nits, and it doesn't look as good to me when comparing side by side. Since I got the CX I've had it and the Sony side by side on dual outputs from my AVR so I've been able to compare a ton of content that way, which has been great.

We just watched Ghostbusters (2016) with the avgHL ceiling and don't desat and the results were phenomenal. But obviously without a frame of reference that's not worth much, so after the movie was over I went back to a whole bunch of the brightest frames and compared with/without the ceiling, and separately with/without desat. I once again preferred the ceiling and don't desat, and this has become my normal setting.
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Old 28th December 2020, 05:49   #1272  |  Link
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I can't upload that demo video unfortunately. But that disc is worth having for this very reason. Looking at it at 1000 gives us some sense of what it should look like when tone mapped from 10000 -> 1000. Right now for testing purposes I have all the enhancements off, ceiling enabled (I agree, that's an interesting thing to play with....I've always had it off), DTN 65 and I forget what my desat is set to. most likely desat i + apply 2 at the moment. That scene at 6:04 looks very wrong to me. I can't tell but it almost looks like it's shifting the white to almost pink in some parts and it's WAY overexposed and loses the detail. Now I turned highlight recovery, shadow recovery, etc all off right now but even with some of those on I could NOT get madvr to tone map that to look correct. Which is why I want to see if anyone else can and what settings they use. This is very much a torture test I know. But it's indicative of the problems we face when even doing 4000 to 1000 tone mapping.
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Old 28th December 2020, 06:18   #1273  |  Link
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I'll take another look at the S&M disc with my new settings and report back.

On the highlights ceiling, even in a case of a scene from The Meg with really high FALL, avgHL will always be equal or higher than FALL since it is basically FALL but without the <100 nit pixels. And so the ceiling ends up as double that which is still quite high on those high FALL scenes. Now maybe 2x isn't quite enough, I'd love to have to configurable.
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Old 28th December 2020, 13:53   #1274  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I can't upload that demo video unfortunately. ... Looking at it at 1000 gives us some sense of what it should look like when tone mapped from 10000 -> 1000. Right now for testing purposes I have all the enhancements off, ceiling enabled (I agree, that's an interesting thing to play with....I've always had it off), DTN 65 and I forget what my desat is set to. most likely desat i + apply 2 at the moment. That scene at 6:04 looks very wrong to me. I can't tell but it almost looks like it's shifting the white to almost pink in some parts and it's WAY overexposed and loses the detail. Now I turned highlight recovery, shadow recovery, etc all off right now but even with some of those on I could NOT get madvr to tone map that to look correct. Which is why I want to see if anyone else can and what settings they use. This is very much a torture test I know. But it's indicative of the problems we face when even doing 4000 to 1000 tone mapping.
This is my b115 settings: I also disabled contrast recovery as well, sometimes it ruins it
So basically almost all the options are disabled due to bugs in them or just don't work at all.

And I disagree with the validity of the 10000 vs 1000 test as I said above, due to this.
And what madshi said when he was back 1 month ago, what do we want from madvr to do: keep the nonTM image or fix the "broken" master? In this case (mad max explosion(s)) the latter

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
On the highlights ceiling, even in a case of a scene from The Meg with really high FALL, avgHL will always be equal or higher than FALL since it is basically FALL but without the <100 nit pixels. And so the ceiling ends up as double that which is still quite high on those high FALL scenes. Now maybe 2x isn't quite enough, I'd love to have to configurable.
You convinced me, I also disabled the "disable avg HL" (as you can see above), this is when I played with it a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I made a spreadsheet when we were discussing it so I could compare the results with both formulas. Even with it eliminated, I still feel the avgHL ceiling is beneficial
I'd be interested in it if you can share it (e.g. via google spreadsheet), here's my simple test result with "don't add peak nits":
Code:
FALL	DTN to reach >700 DPL
15	-
24.27	-
24.58	500
24.75	496
27	457
33	369
42	295
49	249
67	184
76	162
100	123
130	95
161	77
207	60
245	51
286	43
353	35
449	28
730	17
842	15
900	14
Code:
FALL	DTN to reach >800 DPL
27.48   -
27.7	497
28	491
220	63
231.64  60
237	59
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Old 28th December 2020, 14:40   #1275  |  Link
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The difference in this case on the 10000 vs 1000 is that not only do we have it in hdr we also have it in dv. And it's not broken in dv. Madvr is doing something whacked here.

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Old 28th December 2020, 16:12   #1276  |  Link
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Hmm, doest it change with the differernt desat options?
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Old 28th December 2020, 16:38   #1277  |  Link
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I need to test all of them but the ones I tried...no, not really. None of them fixed the issue.
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Old 28th December 2020, 16:49   #1278  |  Link
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Ok, this is definitely a problem. The issue goes away when I enable compromise ON. WTF? This is messed up. Whatever madvr is doing in the hue shift with compromise off is screwing this up. I even tried desat i and nothing else enabled and it's still wrong.
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Old 28th December 2020, 16:55   #1279  |  Link
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Cool, tell madshi, post pictures etc,...

And if you guys are womdering why I tell You guys to do it:
none of my 2 recent bugs were replied (by anyone, but you, when I asked You guys), let alone fixed. Hence I stopped participating there.
If you still be interested in those and other possible future observation of. mine, I can post them here, but You have to force to be fixed
I'm tired of this ....
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Old 28th December 2020, 17:21   #1280  |  Link
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I hear you. There's a lot of...."stuff" going on lately that isn't awesome. I finally fixed the ability to grab screen shots so I will go post them.
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