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Old 19th February 2015, 03:34   #741  |  Link
Sm3n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
After a few hours of trial and error, I think I finally figured out a way to do 'relative size' instead of only 'relative height' or 'relative width'. Yet since I'm more of the project manager and not an experienced programmer, I wouldn't be surprised if this implementation had bugs or performance issues.

Use the following test build at your own risk:
XySubFilter_Relative_Output_Size_Test3
Guess what? You're my man! You made my day so thank you so much.

We only have to remember that it only displays correctly on video with square pixels.
4:3 for instance (non-square pixels) doesn't display like we expect :/
Am I right?


Do I watch lot of 4:3? Nope (if needed, we can try the Scale y/x. That's right?)


Cheers
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Old 19th February 2015, 07:21   #742  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Originally Posted by Sm3n View Post
Guess what? You're my man! You made my day so thank you so much.
Maybe not. I just discovered a major issue with that build which can cause display issues with styled ASS subtitles, even when not using style overrides... It looks like the Test1 & Test2 builds had the same issue, but I never noticed. That shouldn't be happening, so I've pulled the dl links for all the Relative Size Test builds until a solution is found. It should be fine with SRT and other non-styled subtitles for the time being, if that's all you watch. But you'd need to remember to disable the feature to not get unexpected behavior with some ASS scripts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sm3n View Post
We only have to remember that it only displays correctly on video with square pixels.
4:3 for instance (non-square pixels) doesn't display like we expect :/
Am I right?
For subtitle display on anamorphic video without requiring Scale y/x compensation in the script, you need to set "Render Layout Options" to "Use AR Adjusted Video Size" in XySubFilter options. That this is still required on SRT seems to be an oversight, since I thought we were going to ignore that option on SRT and other non-styled subtitles. Either we forgot, or that change got lost somewhere.

If this is not what you are talking about, you'd need to give me an image example or sample.

[Edit: Nevermind, I think I see what you mean. You were probably talking about normal 4:3 video displayed on a 16:9 monitor like your older post, where subtitles size would be smaller at 1440x1080 (horizontal padding) then they are at 1920x1080. I never noticed this, since I actually use a 4:3 CRT. So for example, when I watched fullscreen with a display size of 1920x1440, both 16:9 (1920x1080) & 4:3 (1920x1440) would have the same subtitle size with that build. Which also happens to be the reason that test build kept a constant size with your earlier vertical cropping example. It seems what is needed is probably a user toggle to easily switch between relative width and relative height behavior, since I'm unsure if there is any practical way to do this automatically while also supporting constant size on cropped video. I'll put some thought into it.]

[Edit2: You could somewhat workaround this in that Relative Size Test3 build by using FFDShow to always pad your 4:3 videos to 16:9 to match your display. Except then you'd potentially have long subtitle lines displayed within the horizontal padding, which you may not desire.]

Last edited by cyberbeing; 19th February 2015 at 08:39.
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Old 19th February 2015, 15:10   #743  |  Link
Sm3n
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Yep that's it, cyberbeing. You 100% understood what was my thought. (And I know how it's hard for you guys to get all my brain is trying to translate. I do my best. huhu)

I'll look into FFDShow. I thought about that to be honest and I think I might deal with that. So thx for the confirmation.


Well you know, I only use srt file anyway. I can easely costumize it, not too much. Just what it needs. It's a pretty good small sub's extention (maybe the best).


For instance, I'm a big BluRays sup's hater.


Cheers again. You do great job!
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Old 19th February 2015, 16:36   #744  |  Link
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New relative size build, refactored to resolve the issue which was causing unintended display issues with some ASS subtitles when enabled. Otherwise not much different in behavior to the previous Test3 build, other than it now just having a just a simple enable/disable toggle. Originally I had planned to add a second option with a modified version of vsfilter's default 'relative height' behavior which functioned similarly to my 'relative width' option, but I was unsuccessful in making it do exactly what I wanted. Unlike our developer, I'm just not familiar enough with how all the srt scaling logic interacts with each other.

So unfortunately Sm3n, you'll just need to disable the option when you require constant size with horizontal padding. I have modified the 'relative size' option to produce identical output at 1920x1080 display with and without the option enabled, which should at least make switching between the two a bit easier in that scenario.


XySubFilter_Relative_Output_Size_Test4
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Old 20th February 2015, 13:47   #745  |  Link
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That's very nice of you. I'm gonna give a try right away.

thx
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Old 21st February 2015, 04:40   #746  |  Link
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XySubFilter_Relative_Output_Size_Test5

Okay Sm3n, I think I've now finally gotten both your requests working, as well as some automated handling. I still need to simply the code significantly, but here is a preliminary new test build which adds the following 'Relative Output Size' modes for SRT and other unstyled subtitles:

'Display' = Maintain constant size in fullscreen.
This mode currently only functions with madVR, since it's the only consumer which reports the optional displayModeSize parameter. If using MPC-HC/MPC-BE/MPDN, the behavior reverts to 'Disable'.

'Width' = Scale determined by output width.

'Height' = Scale determined by output height.

'Disable' = VSFilter default behavior. Similar to 'relative height', except border & shadow size varies with video resolution.
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Old 24th February 2015, 14:59   #747  |  Link
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Hi guys,

I've got a bit of a newbie question here. Basically, I've been using aegisub for some typesetting effects to hardcode onto video.

I've always been using VSFilterMod for both aegisub and for hardcoding (I use Hybrid program ver 2014.12.23.1).

But I have a problem. In Aegisub, when I rotate subtitles on the x and y axis (to give them depth), it shows up well on Aegisub but not so well when hardcoded. The end result is instead of text rotating into/out of the screen, it kinda slants on the z axis instead.

I'm not sure if this is a problem with the entire hardcoding process or just the filter I'm using in it.

So I tried using xysubfilter but Hybrid doesn't seem to like it. I keep getting a message about framerate node and that it'll ignore the stream. Btw, I use an avs script to load up everything.

Does anyone have any ideas?
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Old 24th February 2015, 16:22   #748  |  Link
vivan
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Check script resolution (subtitle -> resample resolution in aegisub). If it's different from video resolution it will explain differences in rendering.
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Old 24th February 2015, 17:29   #749  |  Link
Eamon
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Check script resolution (subtitle -> resample resolution in aegisub). If it's different from video resolution it will explain differences in rendering.
Checked. Both are 1280x720.
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Old 24th February 2015, 18:06   #750  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
I've always been using VSFilterMod for both aegisub and for hardcoding
If your issue with VSFilterMod only, I'm unable to easily help you. VSFilterMod contains a lot of unique tags and transform behaviors which aren't VSFilter compatible. If you authored your script with VSFilterMod, you must use VSFilterMod to hardsub it. Unless you require some of the special tags or functionality which VSFilterMod provides, I'd suggest just using xy-VSFilter for both authoring and hardcoding. Scripts authored with xy-VSFilter should be compatible with legacy VSFilter 2.39, MPC-HC VSFilter, and of course xy-VSFilter itself for hardcoding purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
But I have a problem. In Aegisub, when I rotate subtitles on the x and y axis (to give them depth), it shows up well on Aegisub but not so well when hardcoded. The end result is instead of text rotating into/out of the screen, it kinda slants on the z axis instead.
If this occurs when using xy-VSFilter for both authoring and hardcoding as well, I'd suggest you take some screenshots of the difference you are seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
I'm not sure if this is a problem with the entire hardcoding process or just the filter I'm using in it.
If your results in Aegisub appear differently than your subtitles when hardcoded, it is something wrong with your hardcoding process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
So I tried using xysubfilter but Hybrid doesn't seem to like it.
...
Btw, I use an avs script to load up everything.
If you are hardcoding, you need to use xy-VSFilter not XySubFilter.

That said, if you are already using an avs script to load and filter your video, the normal procedure for hardcoding subtitles is to then load them via TextSub (available when vsfilter.dll is loaded as plugin). As long as the video loaded in aegisub, the script playres, and the video you are hardsubbing are all the same resolution, you shouldn't have any unexpected display issues.
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Old 24th February 2015, 23:55   #751  |  Link
Eamon
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If you are hardcoding, you need to use xy-VSFilter not XySubFilter.
Ah, I see. I didn't know that. I use XySubFilter to watch vids with styled subtitles on MPC.

Once I try hardcoding with xy-VSFilter, I'll let you know if it worked. Hopefully, it should.

By the way, is VSFilterMod outdated in comparison with xy-VSFilter? As in... is there any advantages of using VSFMod over xy-VSF?
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Old 25th February 2015, 04:07   #752  |  Link
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Ah, I see. I didn't know that. I use XySubFilter to watch vids with styled subtitles on MPC.

Once I try hardcoding with xy-VSFilter, I'll let you know if it worked. Hopefully, it should.
And I have to ask. Considering you already use XySubFilter, are you sure require hardsub (encode subtitles into the video, no subtitle filter required for playback) of your typesetting instead of softsub (mux into an mkv or external script, real-time subtitle filter playback)? Generally speaking, you should only hardsub something as a last resort since it hurts video compression. What exactly is your intended end goal and use-case?


Quote:
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By the way, is VSFilterMod outdated in comparison with xy-VSFilter? As in... is there any advantages of using VSFMod over xy-VSF?
Different purposes, as they clearly state on the VSFilterMod project page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VSFilterMod Project Page
DON'T USE MOD VERSION FOR SOFTSUB. ONLY FOR HARDSUB! This is karaoke tool.
VSFilterMod is intended for hardsubbing only and contains extra tags and functionality at the expense of compatibility. If you are an advanced user who has already hit the limit of what is easily possible standard VSFilter, it may be easier to create some extremely complex typesetting or karaoke effects. Scripts authored by VSFilterMod are not intended for playback or distribution as external or softsubbed scripts. VSFilterMod is not your only option in this hardsub only, advanced effect, category. There are also things like SSBRenderer which have started to define their own typesetting subtitle format, not even using ass scripts as a base.

xy-VSFilter is general purpose, and maintains a generally static feature set and tag behavior matching legacy VSFilter 2.39 (last official version released by original author Gabest, with behavior generally considered to define the .ass spec itself) with broad compatibility and interoperability in mind. It is intended for authoring, playback, softsubbing, hardsubbing, as well as external script distribution. The primary goal of xy-VSFilter specifically, is playback performance of complex typesetting and karaoke. xy-VSFilter also happens to be the default subtitle renderer for script authoring in Aegisub, and should generally be compatible for playback with MPC-HC VSFilter and Libass as well.

XySubFilter is intended for playback only. It allows higher quality subtitle rendering than xy-VSFilter, as well as scaling to high resolution in a VSFilter compatible way to maintain general visual appearance matching that of hardsubbing.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 25th February 2015 at 04:10.
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Old 25th February 2015, 21:41   #753  |  Link
Eamon
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And I have to ask. Considering you already use XySubFilter, are you sure require hardsub (encode subtitles into the video, no subtitle filter required for playback) of your typesetting instead of softsub (mux into an mkv or external script, real-time subtitle filter playback)? Generally speaking, you should only hardsub something as a last resort since it hurts video compression. What exactly is your intended end goal and use-case?
Well, I generally just mux standard subtitles. But for signs and other styled typesetting, I hardsub it because the native video is usually 720p so when I zoom fullscreen on a 1080p resolution, the hardcoded subs will stretch/blur similar to the video itself. If it was softsubbed, the styled subs would still look clear and therefore "unnatural." The purpose of the styled subs is to translate the original signs and naturally embed them into the video as if it was native.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
VSFilterMod is intended for hardsubbing only and contains extra tags and functionality at the expense of compatibility. If you are an advanced user who has already hit the limit of what is easily possible standard VSFilter, it may be easier to create some extremely complex typesetting or karaoke effects. Scripts authored by VSFilterMod are not intended for playback or distribution as external or softsubbed scripts. VSFilterMod is not your only option in this hardsub only, advanced effect, category. There are also things like SSBRenderer which have started to define their own typesetting subtitle format, not even using ass scripts as a base.
Thanks for the explanation. Really appreciate how you spent time explaining it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
xy-VSFilter is general purpose, and maintains a generally static feature set and tag behavior matching legacy VSFilter 2.39 (last official version released by original author Gabest, with behavior generally considered to define the .ass spec itself) with broad compatibility and interoperability in mind. It is intended for authoring, playback, softsubbing, hardsubbing, as well as external script distribution. The primary goal of xy-VSFilter specifically, is playback performance of complex typesetting and karaoke. xy-VSFilter also happens to be the default subtitle renderer for script authoring in Aegisub, and should generally be compatible for playback with MPC-HC VSFilter and Libass as well.
So I tried using xy-VSFilter to hardcode the subs this time. I couldn't get the avs script to load in Hybrid. I got the following message:
"Didn't find a 'frame rate' info node! -> Stream will be ignored"

I'm assuming it means I'm supposed to specify a framerate number somewhere in the avs script. But I hardly know how to use avs. This is how my current script (which I based on from somewhere on the net) looks like:
Code:
LoadPlugin("C:\Users\User\Desktop\encoding\MeGUI_2418_x86\tools\ffms\ffms2.dll")
FFVideoSource("C:\Users\User\Desktop\project\VID.mkv", threads=1)
#deinterlace
#crop
#resize
#denoise

LoadPlugin("C:\Users\User\Desktop\encoding\MeGUI_2418_x86\tools\avisynth_plugin\VSFilter.dll")
TextSubMod("C:\Users\User\Desktop\project\Hardcoding.ass", 1)
The VSFilter.dll is the xy-VSFilter. And the ffms2.dll is ffmpegsource latest dll (June 2014 I believe). Normally, once the avs script is loaded, I get the mediainfo encoding settings of the source video, convert it into x264 CLI command, copy and past it into Hybrid and apply. Then run the job, and it works. But I can't even begin any of that because Hybrid ignores it all due to some 'frame rate' info node problem. Any ideas?
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Old 26th February 2015, 03:36   #754  |  Link
Moragg
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Hi there! Love all the stuff you guys are doing, I have one (small) issue that requires a very particular "solution":

Currently I'm using SVP to motion-interpolate panning scenes (works amazingly and is so much easier on the eyes). This is what I think currently happens:
Splitter (LAV)
Interpolation (SVP - an avisynth plugin called from ffdshow raw video filter)
Upscaling (madvr)
Subs & Typesetting (xy-subfilter)

Which works great - except for moving subtitles which look awful as they are not interpolated but the scene behind them is. Ideally it'd look like:
Splitter (LAV)
Typesetting (xy-subfilter)
Interpolation (SVP)
Upscaling (madvr)
Subs (xy-subfilter)

i.e. just the moving typesets (those lasting ~1 frame) need to be done before interpolation. Is it remotely easy and/or possible to do this beforehand, maybe by having a different subtitle renderer appear pre-interpolation for the moving typesets?

I realise its probably a lot more work than any of you would consider, so please think of it more theoretically - if it isn't I can just abandon all hope of it ever occurring.

One other beneficiary of this would be pixel art, which has to be rendered pre-resizing to work correctly, but isn't currently. Having a selective pre-scaling sub filter could be a useful thing.
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Old 26th February 2015, 06:06   #755  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
Code:
LoadPlugin("C:\Users\User\Desktop\encoding\MeGUI_2418_x86\tools\ffms\ffms2.dll")
FFVideoSource("C:\Users\User\Desktop\project\VID.mkv", threads=1)
#deinterlace
#crop
#resize
#denoise

LoadPlugin("C:\Users\User\Desktop\encoding\MeGUI_2418_x86\tools\avisynth_plugin\VSFilter.dll")
TextSubMod("C:\Users\User\Desktop\project\Hardcoding.ass", 1)
First, it should be TextSub and not TextSubMod if using normal VSFilter/xy-VSFilter. That alone would cause the avs script to throw an error, since the required function would not exist. Also, you'd normally load all your plugins at the beginning of script. If you are still getting a framerate error, try adding AssumeFPS after FFVideoSource with your decoded video framerate. If that still doesn't work, move AssumeFPS after your #deinterlace, and set it to whatever the resulting framerate should be after deinterlacing+decimation.

Preview your script output with AvsPmod to ensure it is functioning correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moragg View Post
Which works great - except for moving subtitles which look awful as they are not interpolated but the scene behind them is. Ideally it'd look like:
Splitter (LAV)
Typesetting (xy-subfilter)
Interpolation (SVP)
Upscaling (madvr)
Subs (xy-subfilter)

i.e. just the moving typesets (those lasting ~1 frame) need to be done before interpolation. Is it remotely easy and/or possible to do this beforehand, maybe by having a different subtitle renderer appear pre-interpolation for the moving typesets?.
XySubFilter does render subtitles at final video framerate (i.e. after SVP) at least with madVR. This will only improve the smoothness of animated tags though, like \move \t \fade. A lot of 'moving' typesetting nowadays isn't actually moving. Instead it's done static frame-by-frame with motion tracking based on absolute frame timestamps of the original video fps. There is no easy way to detect and reverse this process in the subtitle filter.

The workflow you are describing is beyond the scope of XySubFilter itself. Theoretically SVP developers could do this if they really wanted to though. It'd likely either involve writing a subtitle consumer+provider which sits between XySubFilter and madVR and performs SVP interpolation, or integrating SVP into a video renderer which supports a subtitle consumer. Otherwise, the only solution nowadays is to not use SVP interpolation at all, and just perform 'smoothmotion' frame-rate-conversion blending as supported by madVR and other renderers.

With xy-VSFilter you can already do something like this with video resolution subtitles, if you really want to use SVP. Install LAV Video. Install "FFDShow Raw Video Filter" only, and set to a merit of 00800002 in MPC-HC external filters. Set DirectVobSub(auto-loading version) to 00800003 in MPC-HC external filters. And you should end up with a graph like the following with SVP interpolating video+subtitles:

Last edited by cyberbeing; 26th February 2015 at 06:27.
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Old 26th February 2015, 07:15   #756  |  Link
Moragg
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Quote:
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XySubFilter does render subtitles at final video framerate (i.e. after SVP) at least with madVR. This will only improve the smoothness of animated tags though, like \move \t \fade. A lot of 'moving' typesetting nowadays isn't actually moving. Instead it's done static frame-by-frame with motion tracking based on absolute frame timestamps of the original video fps. There is no easy way to detect and reverse this process in the subtitle filter.

The workflow you are describing is beyond the scope of XySubFilter itself. Theoretically SVP developers could do this if they really wanted to though. It'd likely either involve writing a subtitle consumer+provider which sits between XySubFilter and madVR and performs SVP interpolation, or integrating SVP into a video renderer which supports a subtitle consumer. Otherwise, the only solution nowadays is to not use SVP interpolation at all, and just perform 'smoothmotion' frame-rate-conversion blending as supported by madVR and other renderers.

With xy-VSFilter you can already do something like this with video resolution subtitles, if you really want to use SVP. Install LAV Video. Install "FFDShow Raw Video Filter" only, and set to a merit of 00800002 in MPC-HC external filters. Set DirectVobSub(auto-loading version) to 00800003 in MPC-HC external filters. And you should end up with a graph like the following with SVP interpolating video+subtitles:
The lack of animated tags is indeed the issue I think I'll avoid interpolating normal subs though, its worse having all subs blurry than the (very rare) moving typesets annoying.

You did give me (a perhaps "easy") to implement idea: couldn't there be two subtitle renderers? One (xyvsfilter) pre-SVP to render only pixel art / the frame-by-frame typesetting, and one post-scaling (xysubfilter) to do all the rest?

It seems then the hard part (coding subtitle renderers) could be ignored, all it would need is filter(s) to decide which subs should be rendered when, probably based off duration of the subtitle.
Since the two subtitle renderers would have the same filter they don't need to communicate at all - and one would hope running two very similar things wouldn't cause any issues.
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Old 26th February 2015, 11:56   #757  |  Link
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You did give me (a perhaps "easy") to implement idea: couldn't there be two subtitle renderers? One (xyvsfilter) pre-SVP to render only pixel art / the frame-by-frame typesetting, and one post-scaling (xysubfilter) to do all the rest?

It seems then the hard part (coding subtitle renderers) could be ignored, all it would need is filter(s) to decide which subs should be rendered when, probably based off duration of the subtitle.
Since the two subtitle renderers would have the same filter they don't need to communicate at all - and one would hope running two very similar things wouldn't cause any issues.
Currently that's not possible, nor would we have any interest in supporting a solution which requires more than a single subtitle filter:
  • XySubFilter and xy-VSFilter are two distinct filters which share no resources, nor are they able to communicate.
  • XySubFilter and xy-VSFilter share the same api, and cannot co-exist in the same graph since without conflicts.
If someone were going to do this properly, they should base it off valid SubRenderIntf.h logic utilizing a single subtitle renderer. The simplest way would be for someone to take up development of our already existing yet rather broken XySubFilterConsumer project, fix all the bugs, and give it the role of pre-SVP. Then someone would need to modify XySubFilter provider to support two subtitle consumers (pre-scale & post-scale), along with a proper heuristic. We currently have zero active developers though, so it's very unlikely something like this would be worked on by us.

I still think you'd better off convincing a video renderer developer to integrate SVP-like frame interpolation and work from there, rather than create a hackish solution like this.
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Old 26th February 2015, 12:51   #758  |  Link
Moragg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Currently that's not possible, nor would we have any interest in supporting a solution which requires more than a single subtitle filter:
  • XySubFilter and xy-VSFilter are two distinct filters which share no resources, nor are they able to communicate.
  • XySubFilter and xy-VSFilter share the same api, and cannot co-exist in the same graph since without conflicts.
If someone were going to do this properly, they should base it off valid SubRenderIntf.h logic utilizing a single subtitle renderer. The simplest way would be for someone to take up development of our already existing yet rather broken XySubFilterConsumer project, fix all the bugs, and give it the role of pre-SVP. Then someone would need to modify XySubFilter provider to support two subtitle consumers (pre-scale & post-scale), along with a proper heuristic. We currently have zero active developers though, so it's very unlikely something like this would be worked on by us.

I still think you'd better off convincing a video renderer developer to integrate SVP-like frame interpolation and work from there, rather than create a hackish solution like this.
Very interesting. I never expected you to work on it, nor did I ever hope madshi would incorporate interpolation into madvr (which would be ideal). My hack was the best thing I could up with, but as you've said it can never work so I'll forget about it.
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Old 26th February 2015, 13:52   #759  |  Link
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Very interesting. I never expected you to work on it, nor did I ever hope madshi would incorporate interpolation into madvr (which would be ideal). My hack was the best thing I could up with, but as you've said it can never work so I'll forget about it.
The only solution today which doesn't require any coding effort, would require splitting up your scripts manually, since it is possible to use both xy-VSFilter and the MPC-HC ISR together if you set BlockVSFilter to False.

I do wonder if it is possible for madVR to add an option to apply smoothmotion style blending for subtitles, to at least resolve the fbf stuttering issue in scenarios like SVP or other subtitle framerate -> video framerate mismatches. I could imagine something like madVR requesting XySubFilter send subtitles at the original video typesetting framerate (via tag, or source filter framerate), then blending based on mismatches to the actually video timestamps. madshi isn't taking feature request right now, but I'll keep this issue in mind for the future. You may want to try fielding the idea at the MPDN dev as well, and see if he could make it possible to implement a solution via a custom Render Script or otherwise.
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Old 27th February 2015, 00:31   #760  |  Link
Moragg
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The only solution today which doesn't require any coding effort, would require splitting up your scripts manually, since it is possible to use both xy-VSFilter and the MPC-HC ISR together if you set BlockVSFilter to False.

I do wonder if it is possible for madVR to add an option to apply smoothmotion style blending for subtitles, to at least resolve the fbf stuttering issue in scenarios like SVP or other subtitle framerate -> video framerate mismatches. I could imagine something like madVR requesting XySubFilter send subtitles at the original video typesetting framerate (via tag, or source filter framerate), then blending based on mismatches to the actually video timestamps. madshi isn't taking feature request right now, but I'll keep this issue in mind for the future. You may want to try fielding the idea at the MPDN dev as well, and see if he could make it possible to implement a solution via a custom Render Script or otherwise.
Thank you! Again I think its a rare problem, and not one worth worrying about for if it would require much effort.

I'll hold out hope that madshi at some point likes the idea of true interpolation, after madvr v1.x
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