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Old 30th March 2019, 02:46   #21  |  Link
LemMotlow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
Actually I did, but if I missed them, why don't you provide a link?
Offhand, from what I can readily recall on short notice, from here and elsewhere:
https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php...22&postcount=3
https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php...2&postcount=16
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...as#post2390907
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e2#post2329439, continued here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e2#post2329583

I don't post that often these days. I usually figure out solutions for my own work by searching and reading posts by people who know what they're doing. People such as you, on a few occasions. Unlike you, I don't post my unfounded opinions on things I have no experience with.

Video cleanup is being supplanted by the "conversion" craze, whereby decent digital video originals are screwed up (aka "reformatted", "upsampled", etc. ) to look like the bad VHS of yesteryear played on cheap Vizio tv's and YooToob. Doesn't interest me. Or, to take a modern example, bad analog-to-DV caps that aren't cleaned up at all. What do I learn from that? How not to work with video. Learning what not to do is a valuable tool.

Last edited by LemMotlow; 30th March 2019 at 04:14.
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Old 30th March 2019, 03:31   #22  |  Link
johnmeyer
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Thanks for the links. I stand corrected.

I also love the new cheap shot. You just can't help yourself. <sigh>
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Old 14th April 2019, 21:32   #23  |  Link
rarend
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Hi guys, I've read your replies with great interest and I will get back with a more in-depth reply soon.

Meanwhile, I've ordered both a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 (€199) as well a Diamond VC500 (€29 plus €17 shipping) so I can compare them myself. The Diamond will take two weeks to arrive from the US but once I have them both and I find time to capture I'll posts samples of each of them.

Last edited by rarend; 14th April 2019 at 21:47.
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Old 6th May 2019, 00:18   #24  |  Link
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@Emulgator,
I've gotten my Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 to work on three different systems but on each of them I'm now facing the black flickering issue that is being reported by many users of the device while capturing analogue VHS.

One system is my pc with the Renesas chipset and two are HP laptops with an Intel USB 3 eXtensible Host Controller (one of which is a recent HP Z Book).

A comment underneath this Youtube video says that the reason for the flickering is that the reels of a VCR spin at fluctuating speeds, which the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle can't deal with.

Two possible solutions for this problem are given:
1. Get a VCR with a built-in Time Based Corrector, or
2. Pass the analogue signal through a DVD player (via scart), or through a Camcorder like I used to do, and then into the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle.

Before I decide to invest into option 1, I have a few questions about option 2 that I'd like to know your opinion on.

- Quality-wise, would there be any advantage to using a pass-through via scart over a pass-trough via a cam corder?

- Would my capture process benefit in any way from hooking up the shuttle in between my camcorder (or a DVD player) and my pc, compared to connecting the camcorder to my pc directly via firewire like I did before?

@LemMotlow
I haven't received the Diamond VC500 yet, but I'm still planning to give that a try as well.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:25   #25  |  Link
LemMotlow
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LOL! I figured you'd be another sucker for Black Magic's marketing hype. No surprises here. After you figure out the scanline and frame timing problems that others have always known about, figure out how to control analog input signal levels for legal digital luminance values and avoid dropped frames. Let us know and post the results. The glitches you have now were solved by analog source capture hardware a long time ago.

The analog community has advised against BM and their lookalikes for decades. It's another case of the triumph of hype over experience. All that money and effort, and the captures still look like bad tape from 1995. We've seen it all before. Many times. Many, many times.

You need a line-level tbc and a frame-lvel tbc. Analog and digital inputs are not the same things, and neither are capture cards made for analog or for digital sources.

Last edited by LemMotlow; 8th May 2019 at 13:31.
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Old 8th May 2019, 22:37   #26  |  Link
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rarend, you need a S-VHS deck with TBC, and one that doesn't smooth too much.
The non-S-VHS decks (Sony up to SLV-E1000) I tried brought chroma 1 line offset, and/or were too smoothened.

Here I am using a Panasonic NV-HS950 which has TBC and 3DNR built-in.
Not having been into VHS at all I paid whopping 1699DM for it back then and it slowly became worth it...today.
I have its service manual here, and was inside for repairing loading gear pulley.
It is a huge bergwerk, 136 pages...maybe someone likes to read up here in this thread ;-) ?
Page 65 of the block schematics shows in section 3-18 referring to 3-51 ..3-54
the max what one can do with poor old VHS.
The video processing signal chain is an-in-all dream team:
(Head amp and following usual processing omitted for clarity)
IC2: Motorola SC371024CFU S-VHS Y processor
MN are Matsushita ICs (Panasonic is only a brand name under Matsushita):
IC3: MN67152 Video 8-bit ADC/DAC.
IC4: MN7A097B2C Digital 3D Y/C Separator.
It has a internal line memory interface talking to chip-internal line memory.
Further it contains a frame memory interface using 8 address lines
and sending/receiving 8bit lines to/from

IC7: MN47V77S (256KiBx8 external memory)
IC6: TI F432536PH Time Base Corrector with Burst Replace and Sync Replace.
Just found one for sale. ~53€ at the moment

All these chips are discontinued, with the demise of analog videotape there was no reason anymore to make such expensive rarities in sufficient quantities.
So the chance of such vintage & elaborated video signal chain being contained in recent and affordable BM is rather.. well... sparse ?
It is called Blackmagic for a reason ;-) I haven't opened it yet. But now I am curious. I will now.
Best is to let a dedicated hi-end S-HVS deck take care of that delicate task.


This is what you want.
It keeps all detail, including graininess from source/tape.
Later you can avisynth it all away if you like so.
Additionally I experienced the 3DNR helping with full-frame flicker.

Quote:
- Quality-wise, would there be any advantage to using a pass-through via scart over a pass-trough via a cam corder?
SCART? I can't talk about that.
As even the most expensive SCART connectors continued to pop out of their receptacles
I got rid of them, didn't use it at all.
If you fare better with a deck delivering composite or component to capture:
You got to try and find out which device has the better filters implemented, deck or capture card !
With a mini-DV camcorder the black flicker might go away, see TBC. Sony's mini-DV Camcorder have a perfectly working TBC built-in, IMHO...But I what happens during the conversion ? You might trade in 4:2:2 chroma and get back 4:2:0 I guess. And it is 8 bit to start with. The shuttle would be unnecessary because the mini DV did the (down)conversion already.
Quote:
- Would my capture process benefit in any way from hooking up the shuttle in between my camcorder (or a DVD player) and my pc, compared to connecting the camcorder to my pc directly via firewire like I did before?
If the shuttle does not apply TBC then I see no benefit of inserting if you intend to capture per DV-AVI anyway.

P.S.: If all this is for your fieldshifted 25p sample: You need to capture 4:2:2 and keep it such until it hits Avisynth !
No 4:2:0 DV-AVI in-between !

And this is why the S-VHS deck with line-and-frame TBC becomes unavoidable and irreplaceable anyway.
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Last edited by Emulgator; 9th May 2019 at 19:09.
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Old 9th May 2019, 12:08   #27  |  Link
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Opened my BM Intensity Shuttle:
HDMI I/O: AD9889B HDMI1.3 165MHz: ok
YCbCr In: ADV7604 Triple 12bit Video ADC 170MHz: nice
YCbCr Out: ADV7393 Triple 10bit Video DAC 216MHz: nice
CVBS In: ADV7180 10bit ADC, 8 bit Output only, Mini-TBC... Ah there it is: Mini: line length tracking only !
Indeed, something missing to be prime.
CVBS Out: ADV7393 Triple 10bit Video DAC 216MHz: nice
Processing: Xilinx Spartan FGPA XC3S1200E
So CVBS In is to be avoided, I did so anyway.
And the YCbCr Ins demand a Timebase-stabilized input which I can supply via the NV-HS950
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Old 9th May 2019, 13:17   #28  |  Link
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http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...dps575-vs.html

Hi Emulgator. Latreche34 at the end of my thread (above) said he may have a Brighteye BE75 for sale.
This device has a full frame TBC, but also allows the the signal to remain digitised after time base correction and can output 10bit 4.2.2 lossless (with 12 bit internal processing)
I had many interior home recorded Hi-8 videos that were very dark and noisy. These type of video clips benefit greatly from 10 bit analog capture.
10 bit video has 1024 grey levels (cf 8bit 256 levels). Capturing analog at 10bit resolution therefore eliminates banding when large adjustments are made to levels.
Your entire processing chain can benefit from having a higher bit depth source. You would also need a Blackmagic SDI capture card.
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Old 9th May 2019, 19:07   #29  |  Link
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Many thanks for pointing to the BE75.
Just now saw the gutshot: comparable to the BM Intensity Shuttle, but: Plus memory !
I see 4 chips around the Xilinx Spartan which could make a sufficient frame memory.
Now SDI..., well the OP should know what's best for him.
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Last edited by Emulgator; 9th May 2019 at 19:21.
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:20   #30  |  Link
LemMotlow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxCyl View Post
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...dps575-vs.html

Hi Emulgator. Latreche34 at the end of my thread (above) said he may have a Brighteye BE75 for sale.
This device has a full frame TBC, but also allows the the signal to remain digitised after time base correction and can output 10bit 4.2.2 lossless (with 12 bit internal processing)
I had many interior home recorded Hi-8 videos that were very dark and noisy. These type of video clips benefit greatly from 10 bit analog capture.
10 bit video has 1024 grey levels (cf 8bit 256 levels). Capturing analog at 10bit resolution therefore eliminates banding when large adjustments are made to levels.
Your entire processing chain can benefit from having a higher bit depth source. You would also need a Blackmagic SDI capture card.
Great. You and Emulgator and latreche34 can show the OP (and the rest of us) how to correct the crushed blacks and blown-out brights with that BM hookup. And for the OP's original problem in the title of this thread, you can show him (and us) how to clean up the chroma shift and bleeding colors.

It should be very interesting.
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Old 7th June 2019, 22:19   #31  |  Link
rarend
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@Emulgator
Thanks, greatly appreciate your detailed answer!

I did start this thread thinking that there might be just a relatively simple solution to the bleeding in the sample. But I find it very informative how the discussion has broadened to preferable setups, I'm learning a lot from it. And this includes some of the flaming ; )

Capturing VHS is something I really enjoy, especially when it is rare material. So if changes to my setup (within limits and budget) enable me to do so better, I am keen to give them a try. And hey if in the process this prevents the bleeding then we're all still on topic.

I saw that your Panasonic is still being sold second-hand for reasonable prices, I'm considering getting one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
P.S.: If all this is for your fieldshifted 25p sample: You need to capture 4:2:2 and keep it such until it hits Avisynth !
Cheers, I'm going to try that with my current camcorder pass through (as I don't have a deck with TBC yet and the BM requires one).
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Old 7th June 2019, 22:36   #32  |  Link
rarend
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Originally Posted by LemMotlow View Post
LOL! I figured you'd be another sucker for Black Magic's marketing hype. No surprises here. After you figure out the scanline and frame timing problems that others have always known about, figure out how to control analog input signal levels for legal digital luminance values and avoid dropped frames. Let us know and post the results. The glitches you have now were solved by analog source capture hardware a long time ago.
Ha! Unfortunately the delivery of the Diamond VC500 went wrong and it was shipped back to the US. But I paid for shipping costs yet again and it is again being send to me. You're not running a scam on these cards now are you?

More seriously: just checking, does the Diamond VC500 also require a VHS with TBC, or does your remark on analog source capture hardware imply that it may also work with my VCR without TBC?

Cheers.
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Old 11th June 2019, 16:23   #33  |  Link
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Quote:
Cheers, I'm going to try that with my current camcorder pass through (as I don't have a deck with TBC yet and the BM requires one).
rarend: This is where you came from. The Sony DV-AVI camcorder will capture DV-AVI 4:2:0 and your source will be destroyed before avisynth.
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