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Old 1st May 2018, 15:05   #41  |  Link
TomV
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Originally Posted by hajj_3 View Post
Could a moderator rename this thread please as this codec has an official name now 'Versatile Video Codec' (VVC): http://news.itu.int/versatile-video-...arts-strongly/
Versatile Video Coding
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Old 6th May 2018, 15:25   #42  |  Link
AntiqueRefrigerator
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so is the war about codecs changing from quality to cpu cycles? av1 seems to be barely better than hevc and takes 1000x longer. sure you can have more quality, but what about creation time? do we still care about that?
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Old 6th May 2018, 20:17   #43  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AntiqueRefrigerator View Post
so is the war about codecs changing from quality to cpu cycles? av1 seems to be barely better than hevc and takes 1000x longer. sure you can have more quality, but what about creation time? do we still care about that?
If you look back at video codec history, CPU cycle questions were always on the table. The only difference is 20 years we didn't even know where the limits are, we thought we could infinitely scale, 10Ghz+ processors, or 64 Core CPU and parallelism would work out fine.

Now that we have reached a plateau, these questions becomes much more important.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:01   #44  |  Link
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http://blog.chiariglione.org/the-mpe...o-start-again/

Sounds like VVC is coming along nicely. I wish they could aim a little higher then the 50% improvement though.

There is another pieces about the problem of IP.

http://blog.chiariglione.org/ip-coun...enue-counting/
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Old 22nd May 2018, 19:50   #45  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Originally Posted by AntiqueRefrigerator View Post
so is the war about codecs changing from quality to cpu cycles? av1 seems to be barely better than hevc and takes 1000x longer. sure you can have more quality, but what about creation time? do we still care about that?
No one cares about exhaustive search, which is where the orders of magnitude speed increases come for. Every tool has to get tested every way, so there's a combinatorial explosion.

The real metric is efficiency @ perf. If a new codec is able to deliver better quality in the same encoding time, that's a win. And as Moore's Law marches on, the number of MIPS/pixel we are willing to spend keeps going up up up.

x265 beats x264 for most scenarios with the same encoding time, AND it can provide much more efficient encoding for the patient.

Any new codec has to show that it can provide significant efficient gains in reasonable encoding time. And quality @ perf gets way better in the initial years after a new bitstream is defined as performance and psychovisual tuning gets done.

Increases in decoder complexity are a bigger barrier, since that goes to the cost of all those decoders in all those devices. If something takes 4x the silicon and milliwatts to decode versus an existing standard, it would have to be REALLY more efficient.

MPEG-2 -> H.264 -> HEVC were about 2x more complex per pixel, for about 2x better efficiency. Generally more complexity or lower efficiency gains don't really move the market (see MPEG-4 part 2, Theora, VP6-9)
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Old 22nd May 2018, 20:34   #46  |  Link
benwaggoner
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The other big problem is that it will be ratified 2.5yrs after AV1. There will be huge numbers of phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, tvs etc with hardware decoders shipping by the time h.266 is ratified. I reckon within 1yr of h.266 is ratified that AV2 will be ratified, which will likely have 0-15% better compression than h.266.
The delay of the bitstream freeze has pushed hardware AV1 decode back a year and we'll probably only see significant numbers of AV1 HW decode devices shipping in 2020. So if H.266 is looking promising by then, or if AV1 hasn't surpassed HEVC in quality @ perf, the big drivers of adoption might not happen. AV1's compression efficiency improvements are initially promising, but it needs to demonstrate significant gains versus HEVC in double-blind visual testing at similar encoding complexity.

Does anyone have any sense of the increased HW decoder complexity of AV1 versus HEVC, and how much is additive (versus the same decoder using the same functional blocks for multiple codecs)?

I worry that the current AV1 encoder is so slow that there really isn't a big enough corpus of encoded content to figure out what quality/efficiency delta could be anticipated in the real world in a given time frame.

The cost to add AV1 decode depends on the delta in silicon area and milliwatts. I've not heard any estimates for that delta yet. Anyone else? Obviously the cheaper the cost to add decode, and the bigger the relative value, are both going to be big factors in adoption.
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