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Old 9th April 2019, 16:36   #41  |  Link
chros
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
does 60hz plus smoothmotion stutter like crazy?
I will check this on my monitor, but I remember that I had this problem with my previous LG LCD TV (sm + 60Hz).

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Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
From RTings review of the C8:24p Judder
"To enable this feature when playing 24p content from an external player, the 'Real Cinema' option must be turned on, and 'TrueMotion' must be set to 'User' with both the 'De-Judder' and 'De-Blur' sliders set to zero."

Wha'? I thought TrueMotion has to be Off to RealCiname work at all.
While they say this about B8:

"The LG B8P has excellent handling of judder as it can display 24p movies without judder from the most common sources. To remove judder the Real Cinema option must be turned on.
Update 10/05/2018: We have retested the B8 after firmware 04.10.06, and it is no longer necessary to set TruMotion to 'User' to remove Judder. Simply enabling Real Cinema will remove Judder from all sources on the B8."


So that means it also depends on the used firmware version as LG may fix/screw things up.

I wanted to ask how they tested this but I just found it.

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Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
PC input has none of those :P
Yep, that's correct, this is the LG way of doing things in the last 10 years at least. How hard would implement it in PC mode for only 24p content??? (Especially with 120Hz native displays.)
So you have 2 options with those displays for now:
- enable the true (?) fps content (in case of LG it means you'll get only 4:2:2 chroma at best)
- use 60Hz and SmoothMotion in madvr in PC mode (and get 4:4:4 chroma)

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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
However, "Stutter" is different from "Judder". It has its own categeory on RTings as well, and OLEDs usually fare terrible in it, due to their really fast response time.
"Judder" is an un-even motion effect, which is far more obvious to many people, while "Stutter" is even and regular, but just not overly smooth when you notice it (many people are not that bothered by it).
Thanks, yes, I don't have issues with stutter at all since the whole motion already smooth (most of the time), at least it gives us the "movie" feeling.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
TVs that are judder free with PC mode are pretty rare.
That's the really sad part, in 2019. It means manufacturers doesn't care at all about this.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
brands which have reliable PC modes for all refreshrates are: Philips and sony.
Hmm. But this isn't enough info: we need proper model numbers and firmware versions as well

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i can tell that panasonic is intentional doing this wrong.
But why???????!!!
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Old 9th April 2019, 18:36   #42  |  Link
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Yep, that's correct, this is the LG way of doing things in the last 10 years at least. How hard would implement it in PC mode for only 24p content??? (Especially with 120Hz native displays.)
trivial. if you can do it for 60 you can do it for 24p.

Quote:
That's the really sad part, in 2019. It means manufacturers doesn't care at all about this.
60 hz panel add an additional limitation to 24p so you have to do something "new".

Quote:
Hmm. But this isn't enough info: we need proper model numbers and firmware versions as well
it's a default feature on not low end sony screens firmware doesn't matter they are not LG...
they have a proper PC mode for like ever.
philips has one too is very very limited compared to sony most options are disabled.
TCL is supposed to have a perfect PC mode too with auto detection i never tested one so i can't tell if those claims hold for 23/24p.

and as always i can't test all screen i can test only a very low number
Quote:
But why???????!!!
it's extra work to screw it up so i have to give that to them it has PC mode for 23/24p input hell for all types of input but it
is doing 6:4 with 23p pc mode and 5:5 without and i don't test newer screens they can always improve.
i even talk to a tech guy from panasonic that instantly know what i was talking about and just said to me sorry but i can't find anything in the specs that say it has to do it correctly.

the normal support didn't have a clue what i was talking about and wanted me to buy a panasonic UBD player because my PC can't send the signal and they replaced the mainboard later... i said waste of money. they did it anyway.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:38   #43  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
60 hz panel add an additional limitation to 24p so you have to do something "new".
Yes, but what about the 120Hz ones?! Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i can't test all screen i can test only a very low number
Of course, and thanks for your insight.
What I meant is that people on this forum can check their displays against the bullet points and they/we should report back the exact model and firmware of it.

The purpose of this thread is to find an (or more) exact model(s) that we can recommend to each other. And if it doesn't exists then maybe in the future it will.
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Old 10th April 2019, 13:58   #44  |  Link
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Yes, but what about the 120Hz ones?! Ridiculous
they usually can do 24p fine outside of PC mode.

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Of course, and thanks for your insight.
What I meant is that people on this forum can check their displays against the bullet points and they/we should report back the exact model and firmware of it.
you don't need to do that every sony that not entry level will have a PC mode nearly if not all options it's a default feature.
there was one issue in the past where the first sony UHD screen didn't support hdmi 2.0 that was updated with a firmware so they ship them with 2.0 but didn't update there processing to it and even before that update it was able to do 23p-30p in PC mode with "all" settings.
Quote:
The purpose of this thread is to find an (or more) exact model(s) that we can recommend to each other. And if it doesn't exists then maybe in the future it will.
you can not recommend something in general because not everyone needs the same.

if you want 4:4:4 no matter what with the most possible option sony is the way to go.
if you want freesync you get an samsung.
if you want ambilight for what ever reason you get an Philips.

the more you learn about TVs the more it hurts: https://www.rtings.com/tv/discussion...red-sub-pixels
it's just they do what ever they want there is no proper regulation so a screen that doesn't even have RGB for every pixel can be sold as an UHD screen...
screen can have different panels with the same name on the package even stuff like IPS and VA they can be day night different in different region. hell even a 3K TV is still shipped with build in advertisement that can't be disabled.
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Old 10th April 2019, 14:22   #45  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
they usually can do 24p fine outside of PC mode.
Yes, but we have been talking about PC mode

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you can not recommend something in general because not everyone needs the same.
I don't agree with this: this topic was created only for madVR, including list of points that a given display has to fulfill.
The list can be (and will be) extended but things like freesync, ambient light won't be amongst them

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they do what ever they want there is no proper regulation so a screen that doesn't even have RGB for every pixel can be sold as an UHD screen... screen can have different panels with the same name on the package even stuff like IPS and VA they can be day night different in different region.
You're absolutely right. And the good old panel lottery: if they run out of stock of panels temporary or they want to reduce the cost of the set.
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Old 11th April 2019, 13:41   #46  |  Link
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you can apply this to all not every user cares about 4:4:4 because they simply can see the different or are using frame interpolation anyway. not every user cares about a TV that can do 24p properly and in PC mode because they are fine with smoothmotion.

so has a TV to fullfil your points to be a proper display for madVR. it clearly doesn't your points are still forcing OLEDs.
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Old 12th April 2019, 13:07   #47  |  Link
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you can apply this to all not every user cares about 4:4:4 because they simply can see the different or are using frame interpolation anyway. not every user cares about a TV that can do 24p properly and in PC mode because they are fine with smoothmotion.
I get this that some don't care, but they won't come here and read this topic

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so has a TV to fullfil your points to be a proper display for madVR. it clearly doesn't your points are still forcing OLEDs.
Sorry, I don't understand this part (language barrier).
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Old 12th April 2019, 13:15   #48  |  Link
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you still have 0.005 black in your list that still eliminates all LCDs but LCDs are still great choice for madVR screens.
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Old 12th April 2019, 14:31   #49  |  Link
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you still have 0.005 black in your list that still eliminates all LCDs but LCDs are still great choice for madVR screens.
And projectors, as I was told.
No problem, what value would you recommend instead? (Clearly my previous LCD with its 0.14 nits value doesn't seem to be so appealing )
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Old 12th April 2019, 22:09   #50  |  Link
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And projectors, as I was told.
No problem, what value would you recommend instead? (Clearly my previous LCD with its 0.14 nits value doesn't seem to be so appealing )

I think IPS is out, 1000:1 contrast, 100nit on 0.1 black

VA, 4000-5000:1 contrast ratio, 300nit on 0.06 black

Projectors will NEVER EVER do HDR well due to low ansi-contrast. it's worse than IPS
There is no Best HDR projector. -At least not until- they release projector graded material under the HDR branding

I know people want 500/1000nit on TVs, but TBH, it just blows up black level, and make highlights uncomfortable to look at.

HDR has been a bit of a scam if we really think about it. Didn't deliver on all the advertisement.
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Old 13th April 2019, 05:48   #51  |  Link
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HDR has been a bit of a scam if we really think about it. Didn't deliver on all the advertisement.
I disagree emphatically.

Well done HDR/WCG, particularly aggressively graded Dolby Vision content on OLEDs is absolutely amazing. It's a HUGE upgrade.

I completely fell in love with the look of it the second I saw it. Both the wide gamut and high dynamic range independently are fantastic.

That being said, HDR10 is more of a mixed bag. It can look great, but some studios produce separate HDR10 grades that are much more conservative / muted - to the point where SDR subjectively looks dramatically better to me.

HDR/WCG is a game changer that takes advantage of modern display characteristics. Freeing us from CRT derived gamma curves opens up a whole new world of creative possibilities.

That being said, I think there are some significant challenges outstanding. LCDs with local dimming are not ideal (even if they can get super bright), particularly when you enable subtitles. It drives me crazy to see a huge gray bloom in the letterbox surrounding a subtitle. It's super distracting. OLEDs are fine in this regard, but have their own issues - e.g. frame stutter as discussed prior, and sometimes smaller gamut.

Still, display tech is moving forward. SDR is great and all, but ultimately when you have a 1500 nit TV pushing a 100 nit SDR grade to the limit with the display in full thermonuclear store demo torch mode at some point you're going to run into issues. I think the mastering display tech and creatives have some catching up to do - this in conjunction with consumer panel improvements will make for some seriously awesome home theater experiences in a few years

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Old 13th April 2019, 06:03   #52  |  Link
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no OLED is even close to HDR10 so sorry but 4000 nits is nothing we will see anytime soon and HDR10, HDR10+ and dolby vision are "mainly" container for the same image if it is in spec and an OLEd can't really do more then 700 nits and a peal of 1000 both are easily doable with all hdr specs.
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Old 13th April 2019, 06:52   #53  |  Link
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@ Blue_MiSfit,

You drank too much of that LG koolaid. hahaha

I recommend you read this article https://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html.

They explain the basic principles behind the HDR Misinformation. Which has mainly been developed to sell people new TVs.

Dolby vision track is also fundamentally unnecessary and will be retired in the future, when we get REAL HDR displays instead of the FAKEDR ones we all own now..
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Old 13th April 2019, 08:56   #54  |  Link
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Which has mainly been developed to sell people new TVs.
Any technology they develop has the purpose of selling people new devices. I don't get the point you're trying to make. That doesn't mean it has to be bad. Good technology actually sells better.

The picture on a decent 1000nit+ HDR display can actually be rather good already - given properly mastered content. But there is no doubt the technology still has ways to go.
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Old 13th April 2019, 14:22   #55  |  Link
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stuff like dolby vision (as used on a UBD) are still artificially. you could have done the same without it. so the better technology doesn't win if you can force more expensive ones that add nothing.
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Old 14th April 2019, 05:39   #56  |  Link
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So, dynamic metadata.

This is necessary when the grading monitor is significantly different from the final Consumer monitor when the grade is in an Absolute gamma curve

If the grade was done on HLG for example, then dynamic meta data is unnecessary.

The dynamic meta data is also Not precise on ALL displays, it itself is a half-way point between what the Director sees and what End Customer sees.


Overall, not a biggie, but When we have display parity, then we don't need dynamic meta data/ dolby vision , or even tone mapping.

This is why Moving forward, all that stuff will get retired.
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:50   #57  |  Link
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@tp4tissue

Respectfully, the industry disagrees, and so do consumers. I've been doing this professionally for quite a long time, and work directly with the manufacturers, creatives, and software vendors on this issue. There's still disagreement on creative approaches, but everyone agrees HDR is a good thing, and everyone is making it.

Of course things aren't perfect - we indeed don't have consumer displays that are close to 4000 nits yet (tho I wish I had a water cooled Dolby Pulsar ), and display gamut is still too small in many cases, but this is improving.

Dolby Vision is not just PQ with dynamic metadata, there's a lot of stuff going on to adaptively shape the signal on a scene-by-scene basis from a high quality 4:4:4 12+ bit source into the intermediate 4:2:0 10 bit ICpCt intermediate space used for HEVC compression. Vision also goes deep into the display, making sure the full range 12 bit RGB signal can be properly reconstructed.

The dynamic metadata on top of that is a great way to grade content aggressively today, have it be presented reasonably on current HDR displays, and then (with no additional creative effort) be presented to the best possible effect on future HDR displays.

HDR10 is great, but has some issues. HDR10+ sounds cool, but not many TVs do it yet, and I haven't experimented with it. Vision brings even more to the table, and is widely supported. I see it as the best possible solution today. That may change.

HLG sounds great for live, but again there's not a lot of support out for it yet.
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:42   #58  |  Link
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Dolby Vision is not just PQ with dynamic metadata, there's a lot of stuff going on to adaptively shape the signal on a scene-by-scene basis from a high quality 4:4:4 12+ bit source into the intermediate 4:2:0 10 bit ICpCt intermediate space used for HEVC compression. Vision also goes deep into the display, making sure the full range 12 bit RGB signal can be properly reconstructed.
the BD dolby vision spec doesn't do that. that's why i point at it. its an addional layer on top of the HDR10 stream and nothing else so you can't use ICpCt sub sampling which may help a little bit in compression. the "12 bit" if used like this isn't that convincing too if it comes from a 1080p support layer for highlights. TV have to measure the max brightness on each frame anyway to use ABL or APL more efficient so they kinda have dynamic meta data and HDR10+ provides it for FREE too.

THX certifies are on literally every low end speaker you can buy. i can buy a dolby vision HDR TV for 330 right now i'm not convinced that it will be any good in reproducing the signal even through they claim they have to do "whatever" to ensure quality but they have at least pay the "less then 3 USD per TV". even the free BBB movies is mastered from 16 BIT UHD images in 2008 a "a high quality 4:4:4 12+ bit source" is not impressing me in the slightest.
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Old 15th April 2019, 15:33   #59  |  Link
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Yep, that's correct, this is the LG way of doing things in the last 10 years at least. How hard would implement it in PC mode for only 24p content??? (Especially with 120Hz native displays.)
I was dead wrong about this, sorry everybody:
LG does support 23p judder free playback in PC mode (meaning chroma 4:4:4)!

And about the HDR conversation (not WCG, not 10bit, etc, just HDR): I agree with the disbelievers. Just take a look what madvr can do with its tonemapping on 120 nits (and less, way less) displays! No ABL bullsh*t, no hardware limitations, no overused hardware components, etc.
So, my question is this: if it can / could be done in the world of SDR (using a PQ curve) then why would you need hardware that will never fullfil the max requirements? Only for sales purposes?
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Old 15th April 2019, 15:48   #60  |  Link
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The point of HDR screens is offering higher brightness and contrast for highlights. SDR screens cannot emulate this properly, since the SDR gamma curve doesn't really allow to do that - which is why we have the HDR PQ curve instead.
However, HDR content comes with some other improvements bundled up that you didn't get in SDR content, like wider colorspaces. Thats why tonemapping is required in the first place, because your screen cannot display BT.2020 or even DCI-P3, so something has to convert it to the colorspace of your TV - and madVR does a good job at that.

Unfortunately you cannot really enjoy the HDR highlights with current consumer display tech yet, since OLEDs lack max brightness, and LCDs lack proper backlight control. But there is always the future.
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