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Old 8th July 2015, 22:48   #31601  |  Link
SithUK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
DXVA image upscaling could be the way to go for a graphics card that slow. Is is possible to use a 3D LUT with DXVA chroma and image enabled?
I mostly watch 1080p content at 1080p resolution. Madvr operates using near neighbour by default I think when there is no scaling required. What other options could I try to improve performance with a 3d lut? There are no performance issues when I run without a 3d lut, but the main attraction to me is the calibrated rec709 gamut.
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Old 8th July 2015, 23:37   #31602  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tFWo View Post
My experience with new SR: I turned it off as i struggle to find the purpose and actual refinement in this image refinement.

720p movie i tried actually looked softer and fuzzier with any of the SR algos. Alt. color space made it even worse. Turning SR (with alt color space on) off was like removing a thin layer of dirt

On SD movie (the one i used for those images in my last post) i can see the difference clearly between different algos when zoomed. 0 is sharpest, 2 is softest. 3 is different (sharper than 2). Combination of algo 2 + alt color space is nightmare fuel - Rings of Saturn .

Turning SR on with low number of passes with strength 1.00 doesn't do much but more importantly doesn't do anything positive to the picture. Increasing number of passes just brings more artifacts with negligible increase in sharpness.

What is the purpose of this new SR?
+1.
This is more or less my exact thought.
On HQ content, with high resolution screens, NNEDI3 doubling + AS gives better results compared anything with SuperRes inside the plot.
Few passes = does nothing worth turning it on
high passes = does everything you definitely don't want.
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Old 8th July 2015, 23:43   #31603  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SithUK View Post
I mostly watch 1080p content at 1080p resolution. Madvr operates using near neighbour by default I think when there is no scaling required. What other options could I try to improve performance with a 3d lut? There are no performance issues when I run without a 3d lut, but the main attraction to me is the calibrated rec709 gamut.
Did you try CPU decoding? I think that will probably help a lot, assuming your CPU can handle it.
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Old 8th July 2015, 23:53   #31604  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I really like the new alternative color space option.
It gives an anti aliasing effect, but doesn't seem to introduce AA artifacts. However, strength should be highered in return to make contoures not look too thin.
I prefer algo 3: 1 changes brightness for some colors too much and 2 is too soft.
I still don't see a real gain in more passes than 1.
So my new favorite settings for SuperRes are:
passes 1, strength 0.7, algo 3, alternative color space used.
At least it looks great with the low res cartoon example.
Could you please try some other content, too? Preferable also some sharp and some soft real life video instead of Anime, maybe also with ringing and without ringing. These new SuperRes options may look different with different kinds of material. Of course I need to find values which work best as an allround solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Edit: madshi, would it be possible to use lower values than 0.1 with AdaptiveSharpen with the next version?
Ok, no big problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tFWo View Post
My experience with new SR: I turned it off as i struggle to find the purpose and actual refinement in this image refinement.

720p movie i tried actually looked softer and fuzzier with any of the SR algos. Alt. color space made it even worse. Turning SR (with alt color space on) off was like removing a thin layer of dirt

On SD movie (the one i used for those images in my last post) i can see the difference clearly between different algos when zoomed. 0 is sharpest, 2 is softest. 3 is different (sharper than 2). Combination of algo 2 + alt color space is nightmare fuel - Rings of Saturn .

Turning SR on with low number of passes with strength 1.00 doesn't do much but more importantly doesn't do anything positive to the picture. Increasing number of passes just brings more artifacts with negligible increase in sharpness.

What is the purpose of this new SR?
Rings of Saturn, hehe...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfpant.exe View Post
Liking the new SR changes
I watch a lot of low quality 480p videos
& passes 2, strength. 75 with algo 3 & alternative color space turned on is giving a fairly nice results
& for hd content i am using
algo 0 with alternative color space turned off & adaptive sharpen to 1.5
If you had to choose one setting for all sources, which would it be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leandronb View Post
I edited my post with images, i think the file is 23p, but i think the resolution is a bit weird, but don't know. the osd is in the images.
Yes, the resolution is at fault. Scaling near 1080p to 1080p has quite high demands. As Anima123 already mentioned, in that situation it doesn't really make much sense to force image doubling. Basically you're doubling near 1080p to near 4K and then scale it back down to 1080p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Is there any way to run xsbr and SR on my own via a PS script in my media player please?
Not with madVR, no. madVR does currently not support custom shaders which change video resolutions. This is planned for a future version, but it will take some time to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I realize that you are the game creator and that you make the rules but post-processing settings are highly subjective, many apps come with a "simple/advanced settings" checkbox that has the former enabled by default. Could you for instance imagine Ahead Nero with 5 suboptions? Both newbies and experts want to be able to use it but they have different needs, one part of them likes as many options as possible and the other not. If at some point the latter wanna learn more about what's happening in the back, they can always go expert, learn and finetune it all optimally. Sometimes you don't know you need something till you try it.

At this point, you wanna dumb down mVR as much as possible in order not to scare new users away and all testers have to constantly complain, whine and try to prove their point that their favorite setting should stay(if it's not gone already)
I consider myself an expert, too, but I still want to get rid of as many options as possible. Even most experts do not want to adjust settings to different values for each movie. I know that some madVR users would prefer me to keep all options, but sorry, not going to happen. I do try to remove only options which I consider not useful enough to be worth the effort. And I know that some users may disagree about some of those decisions. But I make my decisions after listening to your feedback, and of course I have my own opinion, too, and I try to fuse them to get to the best possible end result. Anyway, you'll have to live with whatever decisions I make, sorry.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
TBH I couldn't care less whether other users would prefer having HQ on or off, it's a free world and we all have different rigs, different tastes and different eyes. Since when is a "tendency" supposed to decide what looks best to me?
What looks best to you isn't always fixed, though. One day you love a noisy picture and ask for ways to add even more grain. The next day you want to get rid of as much noise as possible. And when testing the dithering algos, you changed your mind a few times, too. Just saying this so that you can understand better that I can't make decisions based on the feedback of one single user. Which options look good or bad can be a matter of taste, sometimes, but sometimes it also simply depends on with which content you tested. Some options look better with some content but worse with other content. I need to find options which look better for the majority of content and the majority of users. And that's what I'm trying to do. Furthermore, HQ downscaling is actually the scientifically and technically more correct solution. Actually, the non-HQ-downscaling implementation was broken. It did not work as it was originally intended. Still, you liked it better, which is your right. But several other users had a different opinion, *I* had a different opinion, and then add to that the scientific background and the fact that the non-HQ option was actually doing stuff wrong. All this combined led me to the decision to use HQ downscaling.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
If I understood correctly, SR constantly compares and tries to find the best upscaled frame so they really only make sense in motion IMHO.
No. What you're describing is one method/implementation of SuperRes. But that's totally different to what Shiandow is doing. Shiandow's SuperRes strictly looks at each frame separately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
If this sample doesn't prove my point to your eyes then nothing will, really: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=30138
This is a custom reencoded Anime sample with ringing artifacts in the source. I've not compared this sample with HQ downscaling on/off. But in any case, do you really want to base your decisions on an Anime reencoding which has EE artifacts in the source already? Of course testing such sources is useful, too, but only as one of many tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Anyway, 1.0 sharpness was way too sharp to me in .13 and if SR is bound to become a silly "SR" checkbox with zero subsetting then it sounds like I would be stuck with .13 forever or would have to run SR on my own in my media player(which is totally fine as I like to set all settings to my own personal subjective taste, I'm crazee like that sometimes).
There are new options to play with in build v0.88.16. Let me know what you think. I do value your feedback, but your feedback doesn't "overwrite" the feedback of other users.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Very nice, now you're calling me a nutcase agreeing with himself

My post was right under this one and if you look closely I did put a "^" character at the beginning in order to avoid a useless quote and hopefully making clear that I was referring to it:

It does sound like he'd try 87 should he be able to, the same way I'd love to try 37.
Neither he nor anyone else in the proximity of your original comment made a wish at all about a super-xbr sharpness knob. So there was nobody you could agree with there, except yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SithUK View Post
I mostly watch 1080p content at 1080p resolution. Madvr operates using near neighbour by default I think when there is no scaling required. What other options could I try to improve performance with a 3d lut? There are no performance issues when I run without a 3d lut, but the main attraction to me is the calibrated rec709 gamut.
Try setting chroma upscaling to Bilinear.
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Old 8th July 2015, 23:54   #31605  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyldebrandt View Post
+1.
This is more or less my exact thought.
On HQ content, with high resolution screens, NNEDI3 doubling + AS gives better results compared anything with SuperRes inside the plot.
Few passes = does nothing worth turning it on
high passes = does everything you definitely don't want.
Regardless of settings?

Did you have a different opinion about the old SuperRes algorithm?
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Old 9th July 2015, 00:04   #31606  |  Link
reverepink
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Recommend me some settings for video playback, please.

My setup is:

Win 8.1
PotPlayet x64
MadVR and LAV Video Decoder
Dell U3011 2560*1600 Monitor
NVIDIA GTX 650Ti

I mostly try to watch HD remuxes and some anime webrips.
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Old 9th July 2015, 00:10   #31607  |  Link
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Any performance improvements with AMD Catalyst 15.7 drivers?
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Old 9th July 2015, 00:10   #31608  |  Link
Eyldebrandt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Regardless of settings?

Did you have a different opinion about the old SuperRes algorithm?
Honestly, the differences between the algorithms and the color space on HQ content @ 4K or WQHD are insignificants.
And with low strength, the action is invisible.

I'm confused, because I think SuperRes is better than the 1st version, but settings are gone.

On the very 1st build,I used superRes with high quality instead of mid, and with everything @ 0.0 except strength.
Since, I never succeed to reach the same "quality" i had at the beginning.

I think sxbr is a great algo, definitly, but I'm still using NNEDI3 64 everywhere. So, The only reason why I don't use the first build of SuperRes for all day using is AdaptativeSharpen which is the best sharpener i ever seen.

Well, I know you don't want too much settings in madVR, and it will be a good thing for most users.
But it seems that here, on this particulary thread, there is a lot of dudes who are some kind of seekers.
And those seekers, if I can tell, i don't think you will succeed to pleased them all at 100% with half or less settings.

But again, you're the masterchief, and for what I'm concerned, I'll upgrade for every version, because that contribute to make madVR alive. And that is the most important.
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Old 9th July 2015, 00:41   #31609  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Not with madVR, no. madVR does currently not support custom shaders which change video resolutions. This is planned for a future version, but it will take some time to get there.
Figures, I was afraid so. I can wait before trying xsbr37 though, no big hurry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What looks best to you isn't always fixed, though. One day you love a noisy picture and ask for ways to add even more grain.
Oh, do I seriously have to justify myself on this? OK here goes:
-I used to like adding tons of grain using GrainFactory3() over VGA fed to a CRT and HDMI to a Darkchip3 DLP projector because picture was extremely grainy to begin with and adding "smart" noise made the picture less "flat" so to speak.

-Regarding my recent switch from ED1 to ED2 with the same Sammy LCD LED TV, it's actually very simple: I switched from a very thin cheapo 8ft HDMI/DVI cable(BestBuy OEM brand duh) to a 4ft TOTL DVI cable with triple shielding, the thing is stiff as hell and made of solid copper wires.

We've all heard the stories that as long as TMDS gets through, it'll be 1:1 so I'm not sure whether the extreme shielding, signal quality or maybe the AMD drivers playing tricks on me such as several lossy YcbCr/RGB lossy conversions are the culprit(s) but PQ is *way* sharper over DVI. I do know that my neighbors blast me off with WiFi but the bluriness on computer fonts I assumed to be caused by 4:2:2 subsampling is now mostly history and with such a pinpoint sharp picture ED1 instantly became a no-go.

On a noisy set such as CRT or plasma, I would more than likely prefer ED1 again. Choices are good, they come in handy sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
HQ downscaling is actually the scientifically and technically more correct solution. Actually, the non-HQ-downscaling implementation was broken. It did not work as it was originally intended. Still, you liked it better, which is your right. But several other users had a different opinion, *I* had a different opinion, and then add to that the scientific background and the fact that the non-HQ option was actually doing stuff wrong. All this combined led me to the decision to use HQ downscaling.
Oh, so HQ is gone for good now? The thing is that different setups might respond differently, especially the video display built-in dithering. I'll be sure to test the new settings of the latest build(being the mVR whore that I am ) but I would thoroughly enjoy a way to disable HQ again please, otherwise I might be stuck with .14 till mVR allows custom shaders that change video resolutions

So HQ looks better or worse depending on the footage and it's now forced, bleh...you even said yourself that you were not sure whether it decreased or improved PQ when you first implemented it. I would happily trade the "don't use linear light for dithering" option for "don't use HQ downscaling for SR" if any possible please, no harm done and I bet no one uses the former anymore(yes, I used to like it with my crappy 8ft HDMI cable on anime content only). GL for dithering is an equally "scientifically and technically less correct solution" AFAICT and looks laughable with any grey ramp, yet it did survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
This is a custom reencoded Anime sample with ringing artifacts in the source. I've not compared this sample with HQ downscaling on/off. But in any case, do you really want to base your decisions on an Anime reencoding which has EE artifacts in the source already? Of course testing such sources is useful, too, but only as one of many tests.
Well, SR only takes care of upscales AFAIK and pretty much all 720p movies are reencodes in one way or another. I'd even dare saying that 99% of them are 1080p downscales. I do see the very same "hard" edges on whatever content when using NNEDI3 or sxbr though, it's fantastic for tiny videos but they both seriously try too hard for 720p@1080p to my eyes. NEDI is sharper than J3AR and yet doesn't give that nasty computerized look, please don't toss it

Last edited by leeperry; 10th July 2015 at 02:54.
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Old 9th July 2015, 00:50   #31610  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
* added SuperRes "use alternative color space" option
* replaced SuperRes "HQ downscaling" option with new "algo" multi option[/COLOR]

All SuperRes users, please play with this new build. There are 2 new options: "algo" and "use alternative color space". I've intentionally named them in such a way that you can't know which does which exactly. I would like to hear your feedback about which settings you like.

This time the upscaling factor is less important (higher factor might make differences more obvious, though). Also this time don't try to find optimal passes/sharpness values. Instead it might make sense to dial passes/sharpness up as much as your GPU can handle, so you can better judge the differences between the various new options. Higher passes/strength values will make the differences more obvious.
I've tested a few sources, and notice a difference when switching between the different algorithms. However so far its been difficult to determine which of the looks I prefer. I think testing other sources will be necessary before I come up with a preference. Based on what I can see it almost looks like switching between algo settings was changing between Super-xBR, NEDI, NNEDI3, and something else. I almost missed that there was a algo "0" option, as I expected the options to be numbered from 1 upwards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leandronb View Post
Hi guys. today i started watching a movie and noticed that was not smooth, i saw the stats on madvr and was showing a lot of dropped frames. tried another file and playback was smooth, so i thought it was file specifc.
i noticed that when in windowed mode playback is smooth even in 60hz mode, but when i maximize window it have the same problem than in fullscreen exclusive.
there is some pictures for explanation.
i noticed that rendering time increased drastically when in fullscreen or maximized window but only for this file. i fixed the problem by disabling double luma resolution, i was using always and nnedi3 64 neurons, but i always used this option and no problem happened before. also all my used settings i think is in the screenshots, i am using madvr v0.88.8, nvidia gtx660ti, i5 3570k, 8gb ddr3.

another question i have is an older one in fact. when i started tweaking a little more with madvr settings read that nnedi3 improves even more the image quality. i noticed that when using this option the image gets a little glitchy with some random dots appearing, i noticed that this was discussed here. what i did to fix was using the mpc x64 with madvr, i don't know if i did it right but the glitches are gone. but my question is, in current versions there is still this problem? do you guys think that nnedi3 worth the performance hit from 4ms to 16ms rendering time?
You mentioned you have problems when running in Full Screen, but all of your screen shots are in smaller than full screen windows. Take some screen captures while in Full Screen Windowed mode with CTRL+J active, and that may be more helpful in pinpointing your issue.

Your second picture the render times are higher than your movie frame interval times. Whatever settings you were using there were too taxing for your system, and that is why it had a lack of smoothness and dropped frames on that one.

16ms is still a fairly low render reading, so you could run in that setting if you choose. I'm not a fan of NNEDI3 since it leads to the fan kicking up to high. If high GPU load and having the fan running full bore aren't a problem for you then you could use the setting if you feel its giving you any better image quality. I'm not a fan of running in that sate, and feel I can get good image quality with things like Super-BR and SuperRes instead of wasting resources on NNEDI3. Often there are trade offs that come with enabling or disabling certain features, and which fits your eye may be different from what fits some of the other peoples eyes. With one setting you may have to weigh image sharpness vs image smoothness, and in another color vibrancy vs light ringing effect. Ultimately you'll have to decide what looks better to you.
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Old 9th July 2015, 01:01   #31611  |  Link
Nevilne
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quick hard sample for super-xbr chroma ar and bilateral chroma:

start at 150 sharpness, toggle between super-xbr fast ar and slow ar.


madvr.avs
Code:
BlankClip()
Subtitle("ONE, TWO, THREE, OUR CHROMA", x=-1, y=150, size=36, spc=4, font="Microsoft Sans Serif", text_color=$aa0000, halo_color=$262626)
converttoyv12.sharpen(0.4)
you can see that fast chroma ar is superior on this image, perhaps it could be a quality/performance option for super-xbr luma/image.

Last edited by Nevilne; 11th July 2015 at 14:10.
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Old 9th July 2015, 01:10   #31612  |  Link
tFWo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbcooper View Post
Any performance improvements with AMD Catalyst 15.7 drivers?
Yes! But still slower than 13.12

Render times with same settings (NNEDI64 for Chroma)
13.12. 30.8ms
15.4. 36.3ms
15.7. 32.5ms
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Old 9th July 2015, 02:56   #31613  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tFWo View Post
Yes! But still slower than 13.12
But what are the clocks doing?? Can't just look at render times.
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Old 9th July 2015, 03:40   #31614  |  Link
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Does madVR support Device Rotation, and if not, does madVR have any plans to support it in the future?
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Old 9th July 2015, 04:39   #31615  |  Link
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I just tested the new version with NEDI as the image doubler, passes 10, strength 0.30, and use alternative color space checked.

The tests focused on algos, results as follow:

algo 0 show some blocky effects on image and the quality is quite low. The higher the number, more ringing can be observed around the hard-coded subtitles in the image. I would choose algo 1 if there should be only one left.

It seems that algo 1 (algo 0 not counted) is the most ringing resistant one in case more passes are applied. I am happy with the result of 10 passes and 0.30 (maybe someone like less) with algo 1.

Just hope madshi can at least keep both passes and strength, because these two parameters has some kind connection on the effect of the images. It'd be hard to achieve an optimal balance of both, why not rather leave the freedom to the users? For beginners, a reset to default values would be helpful enough.
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Old 9th July 2015, 05:00   #31616  |  Link
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Originally Posted by FireFreak111 View Post
Does madVR support Device Rotation, and if not, does madVR have any plans to support it in the future?
It does! madVR now supports rotated displays.

If you mean noticing a tablet was rotated using the Windows API, it doesn't support it now as far as I know.
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Old 9th July 2015, 10:42   #31617  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tFWo View Post
Yes! But still slower than 13.12

Render times with same settings (NNEDI64 for Chroma)
13.12. 30.8ms
15.4. 36.3ms
15.7. 32.5ms


Will test myself soon.
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Old 9th July 2015, 12:14   #31618  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Wat, processing the video just runs on the normal shaders.
Processing is not decoding.
Sorry, it was my bad. Thanks for the correction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
No quality advantage, but should be produce more reliable smoothness. If the old mode works fine you, by all means use it. The new path shouldn't really be much slower, though - except maybe if you have a rather slow GPU and if your refresh rate is much higher than the movie frame rate.
Thanks for clarification, and the ongoing development!
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Old 9th July 2015, 12:45   #31619  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
But what are the clocks doing?? Can't just look at render times.
My card (270x) never had problems with downclocking.

GPU usage with 13.12 amdocl.dll on that video is constant 71%. Using 15.7 gpu usage is constant 75%. Clocks don't change with both drivers.
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Old 9th July 2015, 12:51   #31620  |  Link
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Madshi: you recommended I try bilinear chroma upscaler to try and resolve my issues with using a 3d lut on an old laptop. I mentioned I watch 1080p content on a 1080p screen. Is there a performance impact from chroma upscaling when watching 1080p at 1080p, ie if there is no upscaling?

What is the best way to read performance using the ctrl+j overlay. Render time? Or is it to use cpuz to monitor gpu and cpu load?

Last edited by SithUK; 9th July 2015 at 13:19.
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