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Old 11th April 2019, 14:10   #55681  |  Link
Manni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
@If6was9

using up to 12 bit input support is a default feature on nearly all TV for over 6 years now.

in a perfect world even if your panel is 6 bit sending 10 bit wouldn't be worse at all. while i agree that blindly using 10 bit is not best for picture quality simply because far more TV produce bending with 10 bit input then not it has to work.

a GPU driver that is changing the colors of the image just by switching between 8 bit and 10 bit renderer is clearly not working properly.

how should someone write a color critical application with that behaviour?

intel and nvidia doesn't do this so they either both workaround an windows bug or the issue is at AMD.
It's not necessarily the drivers' fault, but nVidia does that with the JVCs.

When sending 8bits, you get the native colorspace in SDR rec-709, or SDR WCG (DCI-P3 or BT2020).

When sending 12bits, the colorspace is NOT the native colorspace (that tracks saturation very well) but a wonky colorspace that needs a lot more corrections. You only get the native colorspace if you select "report BT2020" in MadVR's calibration tab. This, along with the colorspace bug (in 12bits, the JVCs force YCC422 internally when the source sends RGB 12bits or YCC 444 12bits).

The second issue is the JVCs fault because it also happens with a standalone player, however I'm not sure if the first one is a driver issue or a display issue.

In any case, the colors are NOT the same with nVidia on the JVCs using 8bits or 12bits, which clearly is a problem and makes calibration more challenging as you have to activate BT2020 for SDR WCG and disable it for SDR rec-709 to get the optimal gamut.

For this reason, I use RGB 8bits: no colourspace issues and easier calibration.
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Old 11th April 2019, 14:20   #55682  |  Link
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New NVIDIA driver is out : 425.31 , can someone check if HDR metadata working correctly?
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Old 11th April 2019, 14:33   #55683  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
@If6was9

using up to 12 bit input support is a default feature on nearly all TV for over 6 years now.

in a perfect world even if your panel is 6 bit sending 10 bit wouldn't be worse at all.
Instead I think at that date, most consumer panels are not even real 10bit, but 8bit real + 2 fake, not limited to the one written on the brochures.
So sending 10bit to these panels, both in SDR and HDR, worsens the image quality.

And even with native 10bit panels, you have to have the whole chain capable of conveying the 10bit, otherwise you create the bottleneck, which generates artifacts on the color palette, or band saturation, or color conversions busted
Seeing is believing, there are tests with specific patterns,
try sending 10bit, and then 8bit with dithering,
is simple

Last edited by If6was9; 11th April 2019 at 14:41.
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Old 11th April 2019, 14:42   #55684  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
as you have to activate BT2020 for SDR WCG and disable it for SDR rec-709 to get the optimal gamut.
Can't you just use BT2020 on Projector and DCI-P3 in madvr for every case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by If6was9 View Post
So sending 10bit to these panels, both in SDR and HDR, worsens the image quality.
Seeing is believing, there are tests with specific patterns,
try sending 10bit, and then 8bit with dithering, is simple
Yep, huhn knows this, and many LG OLED owners as well, that's why they use 8bit output
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Old 11th April 2019, 14:52   #55685  |  Link
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@Manni

as long as no other user group reproduces the problem you should assume your end device first.
more then try to reproduce is is not possible for me.
i blamed mclingos screen first too.

@If6was9
i'm over this topic
i'm using 8 bit myself. i'm recommending it for quite sometime but...

if TV processing would be flawless we wouldn't get any issues.
every TV in theory can do the same as madVR. that doesn't change that 10 bit has to work properly.

edit: AFAIK the AMD HDR API needs 10 bit input. that doesn't stop you from sending 8 bit to the display but you have to use 10 bit rendering which creates this bug if i see this correctly.
@Sunset1982

can you please try the "compatibility" FSE mode.
mpc-hc64.exe -> right click properties -> compatibility -> disable full-screen optimisations. just as a warning my TV/driver/windows version combination was happy about this to say it friendly so use it at your own risk... my desktop PC was fine with that.

Last edited by huhn; 11th April 2019 at 15:01.
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Old 11th April 2019, 15:17   #55686  |  Link
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Is madvr hdr_sdr conversion EXPECTING a rec709 space after the conversion ?

If I run the monitor in (AdoberRGB)/ P3 space on a wide gamut pc monitor, is that oversaturation ??
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Old 11th April 2019, 15:17   #55687  |  Link
If6was9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
@Manni

as long as no other user group reproduces the problem you should assume your end device first.
more then try to reproduce is is not possible for me.
i blamed mclingos screen first too.

@If6was9
i'm over this topic
i'm using 8 bit myself. i'm recommending it for quite sometime but...

if TV processing would be flawless we wouldn't get any issues.
every TV in theory can do the same as madVR. that doesn't change that 10 bit has to work properly.

edit: AFAIK the AMD HDR API needs 10 bit input. that doesn't stop you from sending 8 bit to the display but you have to use 10 bit rendering which creates this bug if i see this correctly.
8bit in madVR and gpu,
in this way we will be safe from any problems,
the work done by madVR with dithering is impeccable.
I trust anyone to notice the difference between 10bit and 8bit + dithering ....
Conversely, errors in color conversion or band saturation with the 10bit are clearly visible

If I send HDR 8bit, through AMD RX580 to PJ, I see no bug
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Old 11th April 2019, 15:20   #55688  |  Link
If6was9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Is madvr hdr_sdr conversion EXPECTING a rec709 space after the conversion ?

If I run the monitor in (AdoberRGB)/ P3 space on a wide gamut pc monitor, is that oversaturation ??
madVR does not support AdoberRGB
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Old 11th April 2019, 15:37   #55689  |  Link
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Quote:
Is madvr hdr_sdr conversion EXPECTING a rec709 space after the conversion ?
no.

Quote:
If I run the monitor in (AdoberRGB)/ P3 space on a wide gamut pc monitor, is that oversaturation ??
the output of madVR is converted to BT709 if nothing is changed under calibration.
i ignore HDR here.

@If6was9
you know you can dither to 10 bit too... and there are more then enough good working professional PC screens with 10 bit.

so there are still user using passthrough to a PJ?
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Old 11th April 2019, 16:34   #55690  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
If I run the monitor in (AdoberRGB)/ P3 space on a wide gamut pc monitor, is that oversaturation ??
In theory it shouldn't, but it's hard to tell without measuring the actual display with the given colorspace combinations.
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Old 11th April 2019, 16:54   #55691  |  Link
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Originally Posted by kostik View Post
New NVIDIA driver is out : 425.31 , can someone check if HDR metadata working correctly?
NO. That driver is useless and doesn't fix anything. Nev said it's not part of the new major release yet. They just ran out of numbers from what he said.
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Old 11th April 2019, 17:37   #55692  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Can't you just use BT2020 on Projector and DCI-P3 in madvr for every case?
No, if you use DCI-P3 in madVR the PJ also has to be calibrated to DCI-P3, same for BT2020.

You can use the same P3 or BT2020 calibration for everything with a flat panel, but not with a projector if you care about picture quality. Using the same calibration for HDR and SDR raises the black floor and lowers the contrast in SDR unnecessarily. Not a problem with OLED, but an issue with projectors.

Point is, I use an SDR rec-709 calibration with DVD/bluray for which "report BT2020" has to be switched off, and an SDR-DCI-P3 for HDR content for which "report BT2020" has to be switched on. This doesn't mean that it's using BT2020 primaries as I use a DCI-P3 calibration in the PJ, just that the WCG calibration will be selected automatically by the Vertex/Maestro in the PJ and the PJ will use the correct (linear) colorspace, not the wonky one.
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Old 11th April 2019, 18:03   #55693  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post

@If6was9
you know you can dither to 10 bit too... and there are more then enough good working professional PC screens with 10 bit.

so there are still user using passthrough to a PJ?
I don't think anyone here is watching movies on a PC monitor

Only those who do not have a PC, because the tone mapping performed by madVR is superior to any other consumer device today on the market.
And applying the 10bit to SDR material makes no sense
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Old 11th April 2019, 19:08   #55694  |  Link
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actually 10 bit helps more on gamma output then PQ output.
and madVR tonemapping is problematic with LCD.
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Old 11th April 2019, 19:22   #55695  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by If6was9 View Post
I don't think anyone here is watching movies on a PC monitor

I'm watching movies on a pc monitor

Last edited by Siso; 11th April 2019 at 19:34.
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Old 11th April 2019, 19:39   #55696  |  Link
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I don't think anyone here is watching movies on a PC monitor
Then you would be wrong. madVR is used on many PC monitors.
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Old 11th April 2019, 21:01   #55697  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
I don't think that's necessary: I only want to create 1 3dlut for DCI-P3 slot and madVR will do all the necessary conversions. (Actually I'll create 2 for this: 1 for night and 1 for day usage and switching them in a script using hardlinks.)
What are you trying to accomplish? With DisplayCal, it takes just a few minutes to calculate the additional LUTs. All you need to do is run a calibration in the native color space ("wide" for the LGs). Once that's done, in the 3D LUT tab you select the color spaces you want to calculate for your individual LUTs. DisplayCal will put them all in the correct slots in madVR, and madVR will automatically pick the correct one for the content you're playing, even for HDR, as long as you're converting and not passing through.
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Old 11th April 2019, 21:38   #55698  |  Link
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re the colour saturation issue on AMD cards, if you set MADVR to 8bit it fixes it as you know but you lose HDR switch, would a good workaround be for MADSHI to create a force 8 bit toggle switch for all SDR, just for AMD users. This would force 8 bit on all SDR material but leave HDR as 10 bit .

Should be possible?
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Old 11th April 2019, 21:43   #55699  |  Link
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This is easily achieved with a profile, madshi does not need to be making workarounds for bad drivers that will hopefully be fixed.
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Old 11th April 2019, 22:27   #55700  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
no.


the output of madVR is converted to BT709 if nothing is changed under calibration.
i ignore HDR here.
So, the DCI-p3 colors of a typical 4KHDR movie, is compressed down to rec 709, by madvr hdr_sdr..

Then using an srgb monitor space mode, it's color correct ?

If using an A-rgb or p3 space mode, then it's oversaturated ?
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Last edited by tp4tissue; 11th April 2019 at 22:30.
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