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Old 8th December 2016, 22:00   #41301  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Doubling the chroma channel is pointless. The Luma channel should be doubled and then all scaling should be done and then finally the chroma channel should be scaled. This will avoid needlessly doubling the chroma and then scaling it back down.

And no there is currently no way to do this I have tried multiple times. any form of doubling results and doubling of the Luma and chroma channels, even when scale chroma separately if it saves performance is checked.

what we need is a setting such as "scale chroma last."
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Old 8th December 2016, 22:06   #41302  |  Link
huhn
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change chroma to "normal" and madVR will use bicubic 60 AR.

of cause super XBr is always doing both at the same time.
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Old 9th December 2016, 02:38   #41303  |  Link
oddball
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Can anyone tell me how to use those HDR test patterns to work out my nits value? Also I would prefer to run my OLED55B6V in wide color gamut (Reds look more like red rather than orange red) with 'deep color' set on the HDMI input. However they are a little oversaturated on video. I know without calibration this is not ideal but is running DCI-P3 correct? I'm outputting 4:2:0 video to a 4:4:4 yCbCr pixel format (that's what the RX 480 chooses by default but full RGB seems better to my eyes when using DCI-P3 and way oversaturated in 709) and MadVR plays it at 10bit 4:2:0 FSE. My issue is it's either oversaturated reds and greens in 709 or some odd 'off' looking reds in DCI-P3 colorspace. BT2020 just looks straight out washed out. The whole thing is kinda confusing.

Last edited by oddball; 9th December 2016 at 03:14.
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Old 9th December 2016, 03:56   #41304  |  Link
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madVR always renders to RGB, having your GPU convert to 4:2:0, or even 4:4:4, after madVR is not optimal.

To get correct colors from madVR you need to tell it what gamut your display has. For the HDR Standard mode (don't use the other HDR modes) set "this display is already calibrated" to DCI-P3 on the calibration page, the OLED55B6V has 95% coverage of DCI-P3 in HDR. Sadly its greens are not quite right but that is the best you can do for wide gamut without creating a 3DLUT for it.

It is much more accurate in its SDR modes. For BT.709 content use ISF Expert (Bright Room) or ISF Expert (Dark Room) and tell madVR it is already calibrated to BT.709. Based on reviews this is how I would run that display, if I didn't have calibration hardware.
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Old 9th December 2016, 06:43   #41305  |  Link
StinDaWg
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Jesus. Might as well say that the real world impact of ANY of madVR's settings are close to nothing/placebo if that's the case.. you can quite clearly see the changes here even without enlargement. But sure, let's just remove all the chroma options.. it's not important, why have choices for this.. it's barely worth discussing. Madshi I vote to remove everything but reconstruction soft!

Also I don't even know why you bothered to post
Maybe your memory isn't too good, most of us have been here since 09/10, I think we know what we're doing.
I'm sorry, but cutting out and focusing on small red text doesn't have much affect on real world viewing, that's all I'm saying. It's fine for a reference, but chroma is way overrated IMO. You will not convince me to waste gpu and use anything other than Bicubic 60AR, since I see zero difference in real world viewing. I never said any options should be removed however, just that it's not that important compared to other areas.

On the other hand, the differences with NGU doubling are immediately noticeable. No need for a magnifying glass and it's applicable to all sources.

I've been around using madVR and reading doom9 just as long as you (or longer) and am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else is. Irrelevant point.
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Old 9th December 2016, 07:23   #41306  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I'm sorry, but cutting out and focusing on small red text doesn't have much affect on real world viewing, that's all I'm saying.
Did you check the original content? Seems not, because it's not exactly as small as you make it out to be. On a screen at optimal viewing distance this sort of thing is actually quite apparent and one of the better examples I've seen of how chroma affects the image.

Regardless of size in this example, these same effects are at work and give a clear guide as to how each algorithm works in this particular situation. Something other people interested in such differences who have requested such are interested in viewing. If you're not interested then just don't comment.

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It's fine for a reference, but chroma is way overrated IMO. You will not convince me to waste gpu and use anything other than Bicubic 60AR, since I see zero difference in real world viewing. I never said any options should be removed however, just that it's not that important compared to other areas.
I personally don't think anyone really overrates chroma at all, almost everyone here is quite well educated over these 2000 odd pages with what to expect.

Does madshi overrate chroma by allowing NNEDI 256 neurons as an option, or future improvements for it with NGU?

Does Shiandow overrate it with his time spent on his bilateral upscaler?

Does feisty2 overrate it with his time spent on Chroma reconstructor?

These are options available to us from people who have invested considerable time into something they feel is important. It's wise to be knowledgeable about such options if they're provided regardless how how little they may affect the output in many situations.

These people spent the time to create these options and madshi has provided these to us after deeming them suitable as such, even hardware manufacturers like Panasonic specifically advertise their chroma upscalers even on newer UHD devices. To each their own. They have value in attaining high image quality and the proof is right there in front of you as I just highlighted.

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On the other hand, the differences with NGU doubling are immediately noticeable. No need for a magnifying glass and it's applicable to all sources.
This isn't a chroma vs luma war. You're preaching to the choir here.

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I've been around using madVR and reading doom9 just as long as you (or longer) and am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else is. Irrelevant point.
TBH I feel few people here share your view on the matter, also stating experience and knowledge is not irrelevant at all, it's quite pertinent to your comments actually.
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Old 9th December 2016, 07:52   #41307  |  Link
oddball
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
madVR always renders to RGB, having your GPU convert to 4:2:0, or even 4:4:4, after madVR is not optimal.

To get correct colors from madVR you need to tell it what gamut your display has. For the HDR Standard mode (don't use the other HDR modes) set "this display is already calibrated" to DCI-P3 on the calibration page, the OLED55B6V has 95% coverage of DCI-P3 in HDR. Sadly its greens are not quite right but that is the best you can do for wide gamut without creating a 3DLUT for it.

It is much more accurate in its SDR modes. For BT.709 content use ISF Expert (Bright Room) or ISF Expert (Dark Room) and tell madVR it is already calibrated to BT.709. Based on reviews this is how I would run that display, if I didn't have calibration hardware.
In 4:4:4 full RGB I found that blacks were being crushed severely so had to go back to 4:4:4 yCbCr. DCI-P3 for 4:2:0 sources also caused problems with colors, so I set it back to BT.709. Everything looks right except the brightness of bright reds and greens being a bit glary causing fizzing and a bit of detail loss (that's the only way I can explain it). However all the bright primary colors looks as they should in wide gamut mode. Whenever I look at a display not in wide gamut mode reds in particular do not look red. They look kinda like a orange ruddy color. I also have a wide gamut HP display I use for my main PC display and since then I cannot go back to the old normal gamut. I just need to figure how to tone down the saturation a little. I have an old i1 Display puck and am wondering if the old (and free) HFCR with AVCD disc calibration method would work on OLED. I can use X-Rite on PC output and do it automatically, but it would then only set it for that HDMI input via the Windows colorspace config, which kinda defeats calibration on a TV (it really needs a calibration for all sources).

Most people don't notice such things but both my HP monitor and my previous Panasonic plasma I calibrated using the old method and kinda got used to it
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Old 9th December 2016, 09:23   #41308  |  Link
Sunset1982
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Originally Posted by oddball View Post
In 4:4:4 full RGB I found that blacks were being crushed severely so had to go back to 4:4:4 yCbCr. DCI-P3 for 4:2:0 sources also caused problems with colors, so I set it back to BT.709. Everything looks right except the brightness of bright reds and greens being a bit glary causing fizzing and a bit of detail loss (that's the only way I can explain it). However all the bright primary colors looks as they should in wide gamut mode. Whenever I look at a display not in wide gamut mode reds in particular do not look red. They look kinda like a orange ruddy color. I also have a wide gamut HP display I use for my main PC display and since then I cannot go back to the old normal gamut. I just need to figure how to tone down the saturation a little. I have an old i1 Display puck and am wondering if the old (and free) HFCR with AVCD disc calibration method would work on OLED. I can use X-Rite on PC output and do it automatically, but it would then only set it for that HDMI input via the Windows colorspace config, which kinda defeats calibration on a TV (it really needs a calibration for all sources).

Most people don't notice such things but both my HP monitor and my previous Panasonic plasma I calibrated using the old method and kinda got used to it
Oddball, if you need help calibrating an oled write me a pm. I could help you with that...
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Last edited by Sunset1982; 9th December 2016 at 11:18.
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Old 9th December 2016, 12:17   #41309  |  Link
Uoppi
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
I find NGU low much nicer (less "dirty" and more even/smooth) than NGU very high in this example.

Serious, possibly dumb, question: am I "looking at the wrong things" or is it just a matter of preference (I guess it would mean I prefer softer scaling, right)?
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Old 9th December 2016, 12:22   #41310  |  Link
huhn
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i personally can see what you mean but in the end i'm not a fan of this "sample" anyway.
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Old 9th December 2016, 12:31   #41311  |  Link
burfadel
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For those with AMD and having issues, the 16.12.1 drivers are very much better with madVR. Everything works like it should!
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Old 9th December 2016, 12:31   #41312  |  Link
Uoppi
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i personally can see what you mean but in the end i'm not a fan of this "sample" anyway.
Yeah, was kind of surprised myself to see I clearly preferred the "inferior" option.

I suppose the very high setting is attempting to preserve more detail, hence also emphasizing possible artifacts. By my logic it would imply NGU very high would work best for high quality sources and NGU low for SD upscales. Though from what I understand, most (?) here think "the more passes the better" for NGU - and I was probably expecting the same.
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Old 9th December 2016, 12:40   #41313  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by burfadel View Post
For those with AMD and having issues, the 16.12.1 drivers are very much better with madVR. Everything works like it should!
d3d9 present in advanced is still broken. and NGU performance is still unacceptable slow on polaris.

power management is a lot better as least for me that's it.

i understand something else under "very much better"...
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Old 9th December 2016, 13:22   #41314  |  Link
burfadel
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d3d9 present in advanced is still broken. and NGU performance is still unacceptable slow on polaris.

power management is a lot better as least for me that's it.

i understand something else under "very much better"...
Ah ok, I just tried D3D11 Exclusive, seems to be working great! No doubt there are still issues, but at least I'm happy I can use madVR to its full potential now.
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Old 9th December 2016, 13:41   #41315  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Serious, possibly dumb, question: am I "looking at the wrong things" or is it just a matter of preference (I guess it would mean I prefer softer scaling, right)?
It's hard to know how it should look exactly. I'm thinking much like how NGU very high displays it? Definitely not a dumb question. At the end of the day it's just one image that shows clearly visible changes between the algorithms, not obviously displaying what's more accurate or what affects the picture beneficially the most, which may be why huhn doesn't like it. I'll continue to look for better examples.
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Old 9th December 2016, 15:27   #41316  |  Link
HillieSan
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Originally Posted by burfadel View Post
For those with AMD and having issues, the 16.12.1 drivers are very much better with madVR. Everything works like it should!

Ah ok, I just tried D3D11 Exclusive, seems to be working great! No doubt there are still issues, but at least I'm happy I can use madVR to its full potential now.
No improvements here with these new drivers. The HDMI diagnostics makes things buggy here.

Full potential? Have you enabled the dxva? dxva should be off.

Last edited by HillieSan; 9th December 2016 at 15:32.
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Old 9th December 2016, 15:55   #41317  |  Link
leeperry
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It's hard to know how it should look exactly.
Yeah, it's all moot without a 4:4:4 groundtruth.
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Old 9th December 2016, 16:41   #41318  |  Link
Paul Tronc
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How to set luma upscaling?

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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
The real world impact to any of those chroma comparisons is so close to nothing/placebo it's barely even worth discussing.

As madshi has said a million times, luma is way more noticeable/important.

Hello! This interesting. Being a noob, may I ask which settings are adequate for my needs, I mean optimize luma?

Currently I use NGU in this menu :

(sample image to illustrate the menu)


Should I set this off and use this feature : NNEDI image doubling ?

(sample image to illustrate the menu)


I use madvr on 1080p sources on a 1080p projector on a huge screen.
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Last edited by Paul Tronc; 9th December 2016 at 16:49.
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Old 9th December 2016, 18:42   #41319  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by Paul Tronc View Post
Hello! This interesting. Being a noob, may I ask which settings are adequate for my needs, I mean optimize luma?

Currently I use NGU in this menu :

(sample image to illustrate the menu)


Should I set this off and use this feature : NNEDI image doubling ?

(sample image to illustrate the menu)


I use madvr on 1080p sources on a 1080p projector on a huge screen.
If 1080p -> 1080p, maximize chroma upscaling and maybe add debanding. That's really all you can do with a source like that.
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Old 10th December 2016, 03:00   #41320  |  Link
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@madshi For image doublers :

Shouldn't Lanczos3 AR use the relaxed AR by default for luma downscaling ? I also thought it was your recommended setting.
I think you can remove all the LL variants from the luma downscaling after doubling drop-down list, LL is not good to use after doubling.

Can you instead add more choices for the "algorithm quality" for chroma ?
I'd like to use the same algorithm as the luma upscaling one after doubling, like it was in previous versions. Would that be possible ?

This and an option to disable the forced NGU quadrupling (meanwhile you work on a direct triple/quadruple upscaling), and I would definitely migrate to the next releases for good.
If this is not compatible with the new UI layout, can you define "Bicubic60 AR" as "low" and "Lanczos3 AR" as "normal" for chroma quality ?
I've found "Lanczos3 AR" to be the closest to NGU, and I don't want to waste resources on NGU for this chroma operation (and "Bicubic60 AR" is too soft).

Last edited by Neo-XP; 10th January 2017 at 17:28. Reason: alternative
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