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9th January 2021, 06:13 | #1421 | Link | |
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9th January 2021, 06:33 | #1422 | Link | ||
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I wanted to move non-16:9 content to the bottom of the screen. It turns out it does work on the old Kodi DSPlayer as well as MPC. I tested it tonight and I actually love it. It not only moves the video closer to eye level, but it also moves the video closer to the center channel for better anchoring of the dialogue. Big upgrade! It's the little things
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But doesn't madVR already change maxCLL to match DPL, meaning that is already happening for you? |
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9th January 2021, 13:14 | #1423 | Link | ||||
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But I think that's what @QBhd saw as well on his C8, isn't it? Quote:
Although you could argue that this is exactly what's happening with real content as well...
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9th January 2021, 23:05 | #1424 | Link | |
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9th January 2021, 23:59 | #1425 | Link |
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That's also why I asked for madshi to allow metadata override for passthrough. We want to be able to see how metadata alone messes with how the TV itself works. Now, yes, I could already do that myself, but I don't feel I'm fully qualified to judge what's happening and more eyes are better.
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10th January 2021, 19:39 | #1426 | Link | |
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But if we would have a 900 maxCLL file madvr (in theory) wouldn't compress anything with 900 DPL Anyway, now I think we can move on to DTN algo (since everybody has their own DPL setting)... What do you think? - first we have to come up with a DTN value for "normal" sources: -- these are above of our DPL but not much -- they only have "reasonable" FALL values I think The Grinch (2018) (CLL can reach 1300-1600, FALL 200-300) is a good candidate for this first step, if everyone agrees. (If you know other titles like this then let us know.) So, I created a google-sheet for all of us (let me know if you miss something): - used formula: APDL = log10(DPL) * DTN/50 * FALL - 2 tables in it for: 800 DPL and 875 DPL -- first column is DTN, the first row is FALL This doesn't take into account the followings (for now): - CLL of the frame - limiter
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10th January 2021, 20:00 | #1427 | Link | |
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Edit to add: I still don't think it's possible to figure out to actual DPL using test patterns without being able to disable TMing on the display. Vincent is only able to do that because he knows/assumes the display is just tracking the EOTF and then clipping at DPL. It's not the double TMing that makes it's difficult/impossible, it's any TMing at all. So even if we could disable the display's TMing, we wouldn't use madVR TMing either for this exercise. Last edited by aron7awol; 10th January 2021 at 20:15. |
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10th January 2021, 20:15 | #1428 | Link | |
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About DTN, let's assume the limiter doesn't have any effect (only couple of really bright highlights are in the frame): - if we take a look at the 875 table, we see that even using 60 DTN, DTN will kick in with 250 FALL! - now the question is how high the CLL? -- because if it's only 850 (below DPL) then we don't want DTN to work at all for sure! (I'm not sure that's the case now) -- even if it's let's say 1100/1300 CLL, then the question is whether it's necessary to work or not
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10th January 2021, 20:29 | #1429 | Link | |
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If frame peak (I think that's what you are talking about when you say CLL, right?) is <DPL DTN will do nothing. In reality, DTN will do nothing in most cases even when frame peak > DPL, because that happens all the time at FALL values that are too low for DTN to kick in. Edit: I started with FALL of 2 and multiplied by 1.3 each time, which resulted in FALL >4000 within the ~30 rows. Edit2: I also made the formula ADPL = max(log10(DPL) * DTN/50 * FALL, DPL) so that ADPL = DPL when DPL is greater. Then we see it TMs to DPL until it exceeds it and kicks in. The example I posted for Neo-XP: Last edited by aron7awol; 10th January 2021 at 20:47. |
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10th January 2021, 21:55 | #1430 | Link |
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Yes, CLL is frame peak, Edit2 is good idea, Fall values also can be exponential, yes.
But we need numbers for us, that's why I crsated the sheet. And I'm not sure at all that 250 Fall has to trigger DTN with 60 DTN in every cases.
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10th January 2021, 22:32 | #1431 | Link |
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I think I'd kind of summarize my interpretation of the whole operation of DTN and the avgHL ceiling as follows:
1. Frame peak is pretty much irrelevant. DTN doesn't even look at it, and it can be way higher than DPL without the highlights driving FALL high enough for DTN to kick in. Most frames including those with really bright highlights fall into this category, and DTN does nothing. madVR TMs to DPL. 2. Now as we get into frames with higher FALL (let's just say >200 FALL for this discussion, but obviously it depends on DPL and DTN settings) DTN kicks in and madVR TMs to a target higher than DPL then scales the result down to peak at DPL. Essentially (with don't add peak nits checked) this target is just a simple multiplier of FALL which we can calculate using the formula I posted previously. 3. Within this subset of frames with higher FALL, there is an additional consideration. Is this whole frame "bright" (I believe currently hardcoded to >100 nits but would love to be able to change this) or does it have dark/normal areas and also quite big and bright areas? This is where the avgHL ceiling comes in. avgHL is always >= FALL, but on frames where pretty much the whole frame is bright, it will be closer to FALL, and on frames where there are normal/dark areas, it will be significantly higher than FALL. I think essentially we are trying to account for frame dynamic range differences, and this helps us, to a limited extent, to differentiate within these high-FALL frames between those that have more or less dynamic range. And those with less dynamic range probably don't need as high of a target, and since avgHL will be close to FALL in these cases, the lower ceiling multiplier will result in a lower target than the normal target arrived at via the higher FALL multiplier. So we can try to choose a FALL multiplier that results in proper targets for the higher dynamic range high-FALL frames, but also an avgHL multiplier that results in proper (lower) targets for the lower dynamic range high-FALL frames. I hope that is all coherent! I wanted to post something similar to this in the AVS thread for discussion there, but I've been waiting for madshi to get back on this topic. Meanwhile, we can work on it here. Anyway, I'm not sure avgHL ceiling is the optimal way to account for category 3 and these dynamic range differences (and this is why I was thinking about things like stddev/percentile as potentially much better ways), but having the 100 nits "highlight" definition adjustable might help. I actually think the best way to hone in the optimal formulas would be to do a sort of case study where we pick a number of higher-FALL frames from a movie or different movies that sort of fall into these different scenarios, and each of us goes to each of these frames and finds their preferred target. Then based on this result we should be able to come up with a combination of settings and/or an improved formula that gets us close to these targets automatically in each case. Last edited by aron7awol; 11th January 2021 at 02:29. |
10th January 2021, 22:44 | #1432 | Link | |
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Low DPLs will exceed it pretty much automatically, as will 700/50 750/53 800/56 850/59 900/61 950/64 1000/67 I think all of us are running a combo that has a higher DTN that those. You're running 700/60 and 800/? I'm running a wide variety of DPLs and ~80 DTN IIRC the other guys here are all ~75 DTN or higher? Don't forget our DTNs all increased (or should have) with the "don't add peak nits" option, which is where this formula applies. So I don't think any of us are running low (<60) DTNs anymore with that option. You might be the lowest at 700/60. Last edited by aron7awol; 10th January 2021 at 22:51. |
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11th January 2021, 16:13 | #1433 | Link | |||||||
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But I created those only up until 400 because we want to test "normal" content first, right?
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We want to experiment with the same settings, to avoid confusion, like this! So, what about 800/75 to start with? If you like other pair instead, we can use that. But in this case we only have to take a look at 1 row in that sheet. Along with these options: - "don't add peak nits" enabled - "avgHL ceiling" disabled (for "normal content" we don't need it) Quote:
That's why I though about CLL, but maybe your 3. point is better for this. Quote:
And as I said, probably it needs to be some dynamic detection for this, based on the content. Quote:
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What about this for now? - select 1 title/scenes with appropriate frames for testing - we will check it together - try to draw the same (!) conclusion (if we won't agree what we should achieve then we don't have to work on this together ) So, I propose (for the 3rd time) The Grinch (2018). Thoughts?
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11th January 2021, 20:54 | #1434 | Link | |||||||
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The main reason I want this adjustable is to try some different values on different scenes and see what the result is, to use this data as part of figuring out a dynamic formula. Because I can't calculate an avgHL > 200 nits, for example, myself, I need to be able to set it to 200 and see what it spits out. The reason I suggested this approach is that it doesn't require us to agree on a DTN value, which there seems to be nothing even close to a consensus on amongst users now. It would give us a number of preferred targets for each user across a variety of types of frames, and since the goal is to come up with a new target algo that works for everyone and multiple DPL/DTN combos, we'd be building a formula that already handles this variety. Essentially, it's the relative differences in preferred targets across the different types of frames that we really need to create a formula to handle. Then we could do some sort of regression model to get from the information we have to the preferred targets. It would be really helpful to see if those relative differences are reasonably consistent from user to user even with different settings. I would imagine they would be. Essentially I'm wanting to sort of take a step back, forget how everything works right now, and each of us goes into each frame with nothing but a goal of just finding a specific TM target (in nits) they like best, and then with all that data, we figure out the best way to get there. It may be similar to how it works now, or it may be drastically different. It's like just letting the data guide us. But that being said... Quote:
Last edited by aron7awol; 11th January 2021 at 21:38. |
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11th January 2021, 23:50 | #1435 | Link | ||||
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I think it's important to go through couple of titles (not just 1) at first with the same settings, to establish the goal. This alone will be complicated enough for now Quote:
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- let's use 800/75 then for now -- "disabled avgHL ceiling" enabled -- "don't add peak nits" enabled -- all the other unnecessary options disabled (contrast/shadow recovery, dynamic clipping, sky strength) - that means DTN will kick in at ~184 FALL (if frame peak > DPL) - the question is what FALL/scene combo DTN is really needed and is there any scene in the title when DTN is unnecessary with these settings -- if we can come up with a DTN value at the end for this title then that'd be the best One more important thing: - madvr can/does result in different ADPLs during playback vs still images! The Grinch is very bright, so it's easy to find scenes like this: - 1: 00:02:05 - 00:03:20 (2985 - 4784) - 2: 00:06:45 - 00:07:25 (9699 - 10658) - 3: 00:13:10 - 00:14:00 (18930 - 20130) -- this scene is interesting, there are frames when frame peak is only ~430 but FALL is >200. - 4: 00:16:00 - 00:16:45 (23006 - 24086)
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12th January 2021, 01:44 | #1436 | Link | ||
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I think this is due to scene detection. Switching profiles while paused causes it to reset, so I think that's what we should do, for consistency. These dynamic changes due to scene detection are a necessary evil in practice, but IMO we shouldn't worry about or account for that in this exercise, it would muddy the waters and throw off the real desired targets. |
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12th January 2021, 05:09 | #1437 | Link |
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Alright, I did a quick round of testing:
Notes: 1. I calculated avgHL by finding a ceiling that kicked in and dividing the resulting ceiling by the multiplier. 2. DPL/avgHL is intended to show what the ceiling would have to be in order to pull the target down to DPL (disable DTN on that frame essentially) 3. Switching profiles works well to reset scene detection. 4. I probably should have noted peak as well in case it can be helpful. Oh well, next time. 5. It would also be helpful to do this by frame number rather than timestamp so we can use the same exact frames and/or go back to the same frames for further research. 6. Sky algo is also an important aspect of this. Despite it interacting with the frame measurements, I feel like if there is consensus that sky detection is useful, we should leave it on since it is helpful in reducing the measurements in certain scenarios which only helps us here. Last edited by aron7awol; 12th January 2021 at 05:49. |
12th January 2021, 11:26 | #1438 | Link | |||
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I know it's another variable in the equation but it's important to understand how the whole thing (can) work in "real life". E.g. at the end of scene 4 (btw I added scene numbers to the post above) there is unnecessary dimmed image due to how this works. Quote:
We can also take a look at the histogram. Good idea about frame peak and frame numbers. One more thing popped into my mind: have you ever used madmeasure.exe? (It only requires the mkv as param, I'm not sure whether it works with BDMV directories.) It will create a ~100MB measurement file of the content, and madshi added tools into the first post that can analyse its content (e.g. by frames), "Simple Analyzer for madMeasureHDR". Quote:
PS: I only have limited amount of time per day for this, but I'll try to do testing each day and think with you.
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12th January 2021, 16:34 | #1439 | Link | ||||
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FWIW, I did note the sky algo kicking in on some of those frames in The Grinch, which does happen to have some bright skies. |
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12th January 2021, 17:03 | #1440 | Link |
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Sky algo: yes, it works like that. But when it does work when it shouldn't, then what's point of ruining the content? That's what I meant about not usable at all. Even if it would work fine, we would need to test which value is harmless (e.g. 100 dynamic clipping is crap, and still you can set it).
So let's just disable it for now, also removing 1 variable So if it was on when you created the table above then it's need to be redone. Measurement files: let's share these if one of us created them (so the others don't have to).
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