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Old 26th January 2021, 00:03   #1501  |  Link
aron7awol
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What is the XXX (vs YYY) referring to?

I think the difference in our results are due to two things:
1. Different frames (I didn't have exact frame numbers)
2. Scene detection (I always reset it for these purposes)

Looking at your results on those two specific frames...
1. So sky reduces FALL to 188.62 and results in a target of 823. Is the difference between 823 and 800 noticeable here? If so, reducing DTN to 73 would bring the target down to 800 here.
2. This frame looks fine to me. 809 vs 800? I don't think we need to be worrying about that, it won't be noticeable.

If future frames get higher targets due to previous frames, that's a scene detection issue, not a targeting issue. We can't worry about that when working on targeting, if we want to fix that we need to work on scene detection.

Hopefully the new FALL features in this new build work great!

Edit: FALL detail threshold of 4 lowers almost all targets to 800!

Last edited by aron7awol; 26th January 2021 at 00:27.
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Old 26th January 2021, 05:20   #1502  |  Link
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This 122 build is definitely going to throw you guys off

I've gone from DTN 110 to 200 + detail threshold 3.
My new settings: https://ibb.co/yyzzBy6

Definitely improves brightness in The Meg, but it's a bit worse in terms of highlight contrast in S&M.
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Old 26th January 2021, 11:18   #1503  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
What is the XXX (vs YYY) referring to?
XXX: values here, YYY: your values from the table. These should be the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I think the difference in our results are due to two things:
1. Different frames (I didn't have exact frame numbers)
2. Scene detection (I always reset it for these purposes)
I don't think so:
1. I stepped back/forth (with ctrl+ left/right arrow) and I couldn't find your frame
2. I also reset scene and not just stepping forward

I think it's the source we use I use the untouched full bdmv.
If you use a reencoded one, that could explain the difference in FALL (although I don't see why the frame peak would be different).
If you like, I can cut out clips and upload it to be able to use the same thing. Otherwise we just talk about apples vs oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Looking at your results on those two specific frames...
1. So sky reduces FALL to 188.62 and results in a target of 823. Is the difference between 823 and 800 noticeable here? If so, reducing DTN to 73 would bring the target down to 800 here.
2. This frame looks fine to me. 809 vs 800? I don't think we need to be worrying about that, it won't be noticeable.
I'm not sure about this, but let's find out first why we have different values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
If future frames get higher targets due to previous frames, that's a scene detection issue, not a targeting issue. We can't worry about that when working on targeting, if we want to fix that we need to work on scene detection.
Hmm, in clip 4 that scene is a big panning shot that's why scene detection doesn't catch it.

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Hopefully the new FALL features in this new build work great!
Quote:
Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
This 122 build is definitely going to throw you guys off
More options But I don't want to deal with them now, it's complicated enough already
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Old 31st January 2021, 03:21   #1504  |  Link
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I agree with the complicated! I've not had a chance to even touch the latest build yet. Currently my entertainment center is undergoing a massive transformation. I've finally decided to wall mount my 2 65" tv's. The C8 in the living room on a fully articulating arm and the beast known as the tc-p65vt50 panny plasma is being wall mounted in the bedroom. That's the one that started this project because I noticed the stand I have it sitting on (5' above the floor) is bowing in the middle from the weight of that thing. UGH. It is also going on a mount with an articulating arm that can handle the weight. Not as nice as the living room mount but still awesome for a bedroom tv. Both entertainment centers are getting replaced with audio racks at some point. Eventually the C8 will replace the panny plasma in the bedroom. Just as soon as LG makes something worthy of replacing the C8 with.

In any case, once I get everything back together I'll be testing again. I have a week of vacation coming up soon for my b-day and will have lots of time for movie watching. I'm hoping you guys can figure out some starting point settings to work on by then. LOL
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Old 4th February 2021, 20:42   #1505  |  Link
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Might try the new curves stuff this weekend, but it's pretty intimidating with the little info madshi gave so far.
Maybe I'll wait for others to dip their toes in first

At least if there's a working build too.

Last edited by quietvoid; 4th February 2021 at 20:51.
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Old 4th February 2021, 23:14   #1506  |  Link
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I was thinking the same thing. Holy hell. Power? Yes. But that's going to be quite a bit of work. I have no idea where to begin here.
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Old 5th February 2021, 06:08   #1507  |  Link
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Welp, it looks like we're back to the old non-DTN clipping for HDR output
So until that's fixed, I don't think we can test curves correctly..

Last edited by quietvoid; 5th February 2021 at 06:19.
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Old 5th February 2021, 19:06   #1508  |  Link
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Since we started again to talk about DTN I watch approx 30 titles (TV shows/movies) and I just recently came across 2 recent titles that might (?) be good candidates for DTN testing:

Elysium (2013):
Code:
Metadata:
  Mastering display luminance: 0.0001/1000, gamut: 0.68 0.32, 0.15 0.06, 0.265 0.69, 0.3127 0.329
  MaxCLL: 2594, MaxFALL: 1698 nits
Measurements:
  Frames: 157656, MaxCLL 100%: 2449, 99.9%: 2093, MaxFALL: 1688, AvgFALL: 42, AvgFMLL: 631 nits
This one has pretty high nits, but the avgFall is average at best, I don't know where that insane 1688 MaxFALL can be. FALL sometimes goes up to 140 nits.
The problem is that I don't know where/when these frames are.

The other one is 2012 (2009):
Code:
Metadata:
  Mastering display luminance: 0.005/4000, gamut: 0.68 0.32, 0.15 0.06, 0.265 0.69, 0.3127 0.329
  MaxCLL: 4451, MaxFALL: 514 nits
Measurements:
  Frames: 227064, MaxCLL 100%: 5145, 99.9%: 2352, MaxFALL: 513, AvgFALL: 9, AvgFMLL: 266 nits
Here there are only 4 instances where frame peak goes above 2000 nits, and the avgFALL is only 9 nits So I guess this is not a good example after all

Here are the 2 measurement files in one.

@aron, did you managed to modify the excel calculation to have FALL values per frame? (That's what I miss from the madMeasurementAnalyzer tool.)

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Might try the new curves stuff this weekend, but it's pretty intimidating with the little info madshi gave so far.
Yes, seems pretty complicated.
I'm not sure where those 110, 509, 2230 and 10000 frame peak nits values come from.
But in our case, with >=700 DPL, I guess the first 2 must set to clipping, and only the other 2 needs to be modified.

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Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
Welp, it looks like we're back to the old non-DTN clipping for HDR output
Thanks for noticing this, the old bug is back
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Old 5th February 2021, 20:36   #1509  |  Link
aron7awol
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Quote:
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Yes, seems pretty complicated.
I'm not sure where those 110, 509, 2230 and 10000 frame peak nits values come from.
I think he first chose 110 as a reasonable value to draw a line at. Then he just divided the remaining EOTF by 3:

51.78% -> 110 nits
Split the rest of the way into 3 and we get...
67.85% -> 509 nits
83.93% -> 2230 nits
100.00% -> 10000 nits

Last edited by aron7awol; 5th February 2021 at 20:40.
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Old 5th February 2021, 20:50   #1510  |  Link
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Hmm... You are really good in this!
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Old 6th February 2021, 00:08   #1511  |  Link
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As for the other testing stuff, this custom curve stuff just opened a ginormous can of worms! Everything was already as clear as mud. Now I'm just gonna sit back and see how this custom curve stuff shakes out before trying to do anything else.
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Old 6th February 2021, 01:37   #1512  |  Link
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Yea I don't even know where to begin with all the options now. Like at all.
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Old 6th February 2021, 02:49   #1513  |  Link
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I might look at it at high peak in SDR, but I'm not sure it's going to be useful since 1:1 mapping for SDR would probably look bad.
So waiting for a non-DTN fix. I don't think the curves worked at all with DTN on and HDR, but maybe I have to lower it a lot.

Edit: I don't really know what I'm doing but it's definitely worse than default so far.

Last edited by quietvoid; 6th February 2021 at 07:14.
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Old 6th February 2021, 17:43   #1514  |  Link
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Turns out it's fine to use DTN with the custom curves, the difference is just much less noticeable.
I made a curve that helps with some highlights (Mad Max, BvS) but it also clips some stuff in the S&M bench.
Still have to figure out how to fix the clipping, but otherwise it's not that bad.

If anyone wants to try: https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php...postcount=1516
I used 870 DPL to test, in SDR seems to be similar behavior so that's easier to test without a TV.

Last edited by quietvoid; 8th February 2021 at 04:23.
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Old 8th February 2021, 04:23   #1515  |  Link
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To stop updating the mega link I've made a gist for my curve settings.
https://gist.github.com/quietvoid/cf...4cf6963b55ca1a

madVR 123b settings


For some reason using color tweaks affects brightness a lot so I disabled it.
Since there's some brightness decrease with the curve in places, lowered the desat a little to compensate.

So far I can't find anything very wrong with it.
I still have to play with high brightness demos for the x8 and above curves, I think.
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Old 8th February 2021, 15:53   #1516  |  Link
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Kick ass. Thanks for that. The audio racks are scheduled for delivery today and I'm on vacation next week so I'll have more time to play next week. I can't wait to try your settings though since I'm using 870, as well, and we have the same TV I think they'll work well for me.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:02   #1517  |  Link
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Thank you for sharing QuietVoid!
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Old 15th February 2021, 22:30   #1518  |  Link
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Had a quick look at 124, I decided to reenable contrast recovery because the curves flattened things quite a bit.
Protect top seems to help a little but otherwise I haven't seen a difference with protect bottom.

Not sure what to think about the alternative HSTM, some of you guys might like how it increases overall image brightness but there's also a lot of contrast loss, in S&M at least.
Like it totally changes the contrast, but also helps keep brightness in some of The Meg skies.

Also got rid of the desat 2.

124 settings now: https://i.postimg.cc/NFFVJycd/madvr124.png
Curve is still whatever is on the gist, haven't updated.
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Last edited by quietvoid; 15th February 2021 at 22:42.
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Old 16th February 2021, 01:32   #1519  |  Link
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Did you try Fer's medium contrast recovery? I haven't had time yet to play with these things. Hoping tomorrow I'll have a few minutes.
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Old 16th February 2021, 02:54   #1520  |  Link
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I haven't tried higher strengths, I'll have a look.
From a quick glance it seems better at keeping contrast and brightness, so it might be better.
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Last edited by quietvoid; 16th February 2021 at 03:14.
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