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Old 12th July 2015, 14:26   #31701  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Thanks for that clarification. Can results of DirectCompute even be shared with D3D9?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
Those are my impressions as well. The last image that was clearer and crisper than the others looked better to me too. Some of the people may be having issue with the strength setting that was apparently used with the last image, and they may view it as overkill since its being labeled at strength 1.5. If the same image was posted with a strength listing of .5 or 1 it might not get as much complaint. Perhaps the same image with a setting of .5, 1, or something in-between would give similar clarity. Regardless I see Adaptive Sharpening as beneficial.
The house, roof and many edges look better in that image, but everything nature (grass, bushes) in front of the house looks absolutely terrible. Looks like a water color / oil painting instead of a photo.

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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Haha, I know. It's kind of fascinating what specialized neural networks can do when given free reign though. I'm sure we'll get to human levels of recognition one day (and it'll stop adding weird eyes all over the place).
Maybe, but NNEDI3 will be ultra fast compared to such kind of algorithms.
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Old 12th July 2015, 16:05   #31702  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The "trade quality for performance" options are there to trade quality for performance. What you're asking for has nothing to do with performance. So the option you want would not belong into the "trade quality for performance" section.
I would also be cool with creating a folder in mVR's folder such as "SuperRes HQ OFF" or something if that's not too much trouble please. You allowed this kind of kludge in the past to force PC levels and a few other things, not the end of the world apparently as it's not adding clutter to the GUI and won't raise questions from newbies either?

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I think it was four, plus my own strong preference, against only one clear and reliable vote (yours) for HQ off. Yeah, not a lot of votes, but I have to work with what I'm given. Of course I could just tweak the algos myself, based on my own preferences. But just to be safe, I'm asking for feedback. And if the majority vote of the feedback happens to agree with my own eyes, then I think things are pretty clear.
Duly noted, still the middle of summer in the US and EU is more than likely not the best time to take decisions of such paramount importance(to me at least ) when it comes to an option that adds such a nasty veil to the picture IMHO. Talk about one step forward, two steps backwards

That's usually how they do it in my country when they wanna pass laws nobody would agree on, they pass them at night during summer, case closed

Either way, HQ is a complete showstopper for me so if .15 is seriously the last version providing a switch for it then I'm more than likely through with updates till mVR supports resolution-changing PS scripts so I could go nuts and mess with ALL the SR/sxbr settings......any very rough ETA for this please? Apart from "not soon"?

Or maybe I'll get bored of SR at some point as I do realize that it's extremely sharp and I've never been a fan of sharpening to begin with, but its effect on 24p motion blur with HQ off is pure magic to me in combination with monostatic ED2@8bit

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Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
I'm not sure why, but the rendering hit I used to encounter with it unchecked is no longer occurring
If you were using it in combination with any kind of ED, run a gray ramp and you'll both be be horrified and happy to have it unchecked now
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Old 12th July 2015, 18:58   #31703  |  Link
iSunrise
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Thanks. Maybe I can add an AR filter to FineSharp in the future.
Extremely interesting idea. Would love to try it out.

But now to my follow-up regarding Finesharp vs. AdaptiveSharpen, which I now had a bit more time to dig deeper, after I did some more tests with different samples.

On a more general note, from the samples I looked at, Finesharp is a lot more uniform with it's sharpening, which especially benefits real-world content, since it doesn't selectively sharpen like AdaptiveSharpen. Which means that, if you want to sharpen the whole image for basically the same value, Finesharp is definitely the way to go. It also looks way more natural due to this behaviour.

AdaptiveSharpen is definitely not a replacement for Finesharp, but more like an additional sharpening effect, which can be beneficial on some content, but (see below) you have to be very careful with higher values.

Also, there are huge (and I mean HUGE) differences when you compare both algorithms using image enhancements and upsaling refinement, more below.

Here's an example, why I would completely stay away from AdaptiveSharpen on the image enhancements tab, no matter what values you set.

Image enhancements - Finesharp 1.0



Image enhancements - AdaptiveSharpen 0.3



I think I don't need to explain the results, they speak for themselves. Finesharp can be used with very high values (I still would recommend not to go much higher than 1.0), while AdaptiveSharpen even beginning from values like 0.1 already rings and 0.3 already rings like crazy and it also adds some very strange look to the image. On game recordings, anime and real-world content, this should be avoided at all cost. For image enhancements, Finesharp is the clear winner on all the content I have looked at and tested. With an additional AR algorithm applied, Finesharp would be very close to perfect.

The situation with the higher ringing that AdaptiveSharpen shows when used in the image enhancement tab, completely reverses when you use AdaptiveSharpen on the upscaling refinement tab. Using the same values from above, AdaptiveSharpen rings a lot less than FineSharp in this tab, however, it still retains that oil painting look that worsens the higher you go with the values.

So, for me, personally, I would stay away from AdaptiveSharpen in the image enhancements tab altogether and only use it in the upscaling refinements tab and also preferably with VERY low values (like 0.1 or maybe even lower).
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Old 12th July 2015, 19:55   #31704  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Mostly agreed.
I really like the effect of AS as an UR with low values (e.g. 0.2) for NNEDI3. Everything's still well reconstructed, but that softness disappears for a huge amount. Especially if sharpened after each 2x upscaling step. Thanks to its adaptive nature, it doesn't oversharp already sharpened areas and there is very little aliasing introduced.
Maybe this works a bit better with naturalistic content than with artificial one due to that thickening of black lines. But without sharpening, those lines are very soft with NNEDI3 though.
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Old 12th July 2015, 23:33   #31705  |  Link
XMonarchY
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I still get a ton of presentation glitches on my 120Hz monitor, even if I set it to 60Hz. The same exact settings work perfectly fine on my TV @ 23Hz. I don't get it. Average rendering times are identical on both TV and monitor - about 27-28ms (same as max stats). I can reduce presentation glitches on 120Hz monitor by enabling "present a frame for every VSync", but then still occur (1 every 10 seconds or so). However, enabling this option during playback on my TV @ 23Hz creates dropped frames and presentation glitches. Setting "present several frames in advance" to 1 also helped to reduce presentation glitches (1 every 15-30 seconds). Using less GPU-taxing settings made no difference.

The second issue I get on my TV is that at times when I pause playback and resume it, I get severe playback stuttering, which I can fix by exiting fullscreen exclusive mode to window mode and then going back to fullscreen exclusive mode. That does not happen on my 120Hz monitor though...

I reset madVR settings to default, uninstall it as admin, restarted, install madVR as admin, reset settings back to default, and applied settings I use. That did not help.

EDIT: Could these issues because I set "Maximum Pre-Rendered Frames" to 1 in NVidia Control Panel? I set it so because it reduces stuttering associated with using Borderless Window mode in PC games.

Last edited by XMonarchY; 12th July 2015 at 23:45.
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Old 12th July 2015, 23:42   #31706  |  Link
nevcairiel
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High Refresh Rate screens can be a bit fiddly. You may need to increase the queue sizes quite a bit to accomodate for the higher refresh rate, that tends to help for me to reduce the glitches, and "present a frame every vsync" is pretty much mandatory.
Personally, its not like I see the glitches, it just piles up on the counter.

PS:
There will never be settings that work 100% perfect on every system, so having to change a setting here or there depending if you're playing 23.976 on a 120Hz screen, or having it play 1:1 on a 23p TV is not uncommon.
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Old 13th July 2015, 00:18   #31707  |  Link
kasper93
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@madshi: Something weird is going on. If I make MPC-HC window size equal to screen size madVR will go into exclusive mode and position window in center even though it weren't before. If I open context menu to disable exclusive mode it window go back to its original place. Also seekbar doesn't work in this "exclusive mode" probably it is not reported correctly.

To reproduce open any file in MPC-HC. And stretch the window to display size (not work area size). Basically this means to Make MPC-HC max size. To do that you need manual grab window borders and stretch it.

I will look into details tommorow. But it looks like madVR have "if (windowSize == displaySize) GoToRetardedExclusiveMode();" logic
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Old 13th July 2015, 00:24   #31708  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
High Refresh Rate screens can be a bit fiddly. You may need to increase the queue sizes quite a bit to accomodate for the higher refresh rate, that tends to help for me to reduce the glitches, and "present a frame every vsync" is pretty much mandatory.
Personally, its not like I see the glitches, it just piles up on the counter.

PS:
There will never be settings that work 100% perfect on every system, so having to change a setting here or there depending if you're playing 23.976 on a 120Hz screen, or having it play 1:1 on a 23p TV is not uncommon.
Erm, but enabling "present several frames in advance" and setting "how many video frames shall be presented in advance" to 1 helped a lot. Anything higher than 1 and I get more frequent presentation glitches.
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Old 13th July 2015, 00:31   #31709  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Erm, but enabling "present several frames in advance" and setting "how many video frames shall be presented in advance" to 1 helped a lot. Anything higher than 1 and I get more frequent presentation glitches.
Don't set pre-presented frames in the NVIDIA control panel then, it messes madVR up quite considerably.
Luckily the NVIDIA panel has per-app settings!
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Old 13th July 2015, 00:42   #31710  |  Link
Magik Mark
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Don't set pre-presented frames in the NVIDIA control panel then, it messes madVR up quite considerably.
Luckily the NVIDIA panel has per-app settings!
Thanks for this tip. Are there any other settings that would degrade the performance of madvr or any other renderers in the Nvidia control panel? Is it better to just tick "Let 3d application decide" option?
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Old 13th July 2015, 01:05   #31711  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Magik Mark View Post
Thanks for this tip. Are there any other settings that would degrade the performance of madvr or any other renderers in the Nvidia control panel? Is it better to just tick "Let 3d application decide" option?
just leave them at default and you are fine.
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Old 13th July 2015, 01:05   #31712  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Vsync, prerenderlimit, power management mode and Optimus settings are the only driver-settings that should affect madVR. Everything should be kept at driver default (app-controlled) for the profile of your media player.
If you change settings globally, you have to set them back for each profile.
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Old 13th July 2015, 03:10   #31713  |  Link
Anime Viewer
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If you were using it in combination with any kind of ED, run a gray ramp and you'll both be be horrified and happy to have it unchecked now
I realized why I had it checked, and it wasn't because of render rate stats, but present stats. With "don't use linear light for dithering" checked and the video full screen my present rates are in the 3ms area, but with it unchecked and the video full screen they are in the 11ms area.

Edit: Windowed Full Screen (D3D11) runs with the 11ms presents, but if I run in D3D11 Exclusive (10 bit) its back down to 3ms again. Edit #2: Unchecking "present a frame for every VSync" also seems to be a way to bring it back down to 3ms while in (D3D11) Windowed Full Screen mode.
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Last edited by Anime Viewer; 13th July 2015 at 03:30. Reason: added details about D3D11 mode effects
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Old 13th July 2015, 03:46   #31714  |  Link
6ari8
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I realized why I had it checked, and it wasn't because of render rate stats, but present stats. With "don't use linear light for dithering" checked and the video full screen my present rates are in the 3ms area, but with it unchecked and the video full screen they are in the 11ms area.

Edit: Windowed Full Screen (D3D11) runs with the 11ms presents, but if I run in D3D11 Exclusive (10 bit) its back down to 3ms again. Edit #2: Unchecking "present a frame for every VSync" also seems to be a way to bring it back down to 3ms while in (D3D11) Windowed Full Screen mode.
Are you using an HDMI port? I think you can probably bring down the present stats to below 1ms by using the DisplayPort (though that depends on the laptop). You can see which port you have that's connected to the discreet GPU from Nvidia's control panel. Mine has the mDP only but there are different cases for laptops like these:


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Old 13th July 2015, 03:48   #31715  |  Link
Warner306
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Today, I attempted to embrace image sharpening as tool to improve an image rather than enhance its artifacts. I found the following settings beneficial in improving the quality of high-definition video:

1080p -> 1080p
Image Enhancements - FineSharp (strength 0.6)

720p -> 1080p
Upscaling Refinement - SuperRes (medium: strength=1.0; passes=1)

SuperRes is my favourite of the two. Its ringing is not obvious or bothersome compared to other sharpeners. I'm curious if the luma and chroma are doubled together or just the luma like the other shaders?

An AR filter for FineSharp would be great.

Last edited by Warner306; 13th July 2015 at 07:34.
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Old 13th July 2015, 05:10   #31716  |  Link
Anime Viewer
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Are you using an HDMI port? I think you can probably bring down the present stats to below 1ms by using the DisplayPort (though that depends on the laptop). You can see which port you have that's connected to the discreet GPU from Nvidia's control panel. Mine has the mDP only but there are different cases for laptops like these:
Yes, I have an HDMI port that I connect my TV to, but both the TV and the laptop screen are shown to go through the Intel GPU like the second image you posted. Here is the PhysX display diagram on my system:
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Old 13th July 2015, 05:42   #31717  |  Link
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Does madvr support 36-bit deep color output or does it cap out at 30-bit?

I ask this because I believe my receiver is taking 30-bit output and down converting it to 24-bit. It is a Pioneer VSX 1021-K which the specs say it supports 36-bit deep color and no mention of anything else.

If I connect my computer directly to my TV it is fine and the test picture I am viewing shows no banding but if I go through the receiver it shows banding.

I have made sure the display properties in madvr is set to 10-bit and higher and made sure in catalyst control center that the display is set to 12-bit.

The manual doesn't mention if only certain HDMI ports accept this or not. I could try moving it around and testing a bit more. I am using the same input on the TV that works and made sure it is set to PC and UHD color.
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Old 13th July 2015, 06:23   #31718  |  Link
6ari8
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Yes, I have an HDMI port that I connect my TV to, but both the TV and the laptop screen are shown to go through the Intel GPU like the second image you posted. Here is the PhysX display diagram on my system:
Mine's like the second one. Yours seems to be like the third image.

Unfortunately, that means that all your output ports are connected to the Intel GPU.

I don't know what gaming laptop makers were thinking by choosing to connect output ports to the iGPU. I think anyone using their laptop to drive monitors with those ports would be using a power supply so connecting them to the discreet GPU would've been a much better choice.

With your setup, I think you should use exclusive mode with either D3D9 or D3D11 because that brings down the present stats to around 1-3ms for me when I'm using my HDMI port. Windowed mode gives me 8-9ms present.

Last edited by 6ari8; 13th July 2015 at 06:27.
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Old 13th July 2015, 07:37   #31719  |  Link
trip_let
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I was checking through a variety of content to find bad samples for s-xbr and just ran across a case where s-xbr doubling at any sharpness gets confused. I'm sure there are others, but in case someone's never seen what weirdness can happen sometimes, here it is.

s-xbr 50 vs. nnedi3 16
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/134926

Original image


Doesn't really matter which s-xbr setting; it gets confused and erases some of the lines in the background grid in the box with the 32275GP with all of them. And there's nothing special about nnedi3, which was used for comparison. It could have been anything else. I think SuperRes may be on for both, but that's besides the point and not consequential.
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Old 13th July 2015, 08:01   #31720  |  Link
iSunrise
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@trip_let:
Your example perfectly shows, why super-xbr in it's current state is not a contender to NNEDI3 at all. Personally, I found the loss of picture details disturbing and also the strange alterations in various samples. Your example (and other tests I've done yesterday) only show that:

1) super-xbr seems to completely erase/destroy very visible picture details and also fine detail (look at the various 1s at the bottom, it almost modifies the 1 to an I, unacceptable)
2) NNEDI3 is a lot sharper than super-xbr (which is a result of the loss of fine detail)
3) super-xbr "rounds everything" and acts as some kind of anti-aliasing filter, adding picture information where there was none before

People that want an accurate representation of the original should stay away from it, even though it might be a lot faster.

Personally, I found that the new bilateral chroma scaler is extremely promising, at least on the samples I've watched closely, it's also extremely fast, looks great and is a perfect combination with NNEDI3 doubling and Bicubic50/75 for luma upscaling. Very good results if you can take the NNEDI3 performance hit.
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