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Old 20th November 2020, 04:55   #60741  |  Link
tp4tissue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flaviowolff View Post
My AOC 24G2 pc monitor specs report 250 nits.. reviewers measured about 300. But it doesn't fit your description, as it's not local dimming. In this case, is it better with standard sdr content?

I know I can just test it and see what I like the most, but I like hearing opinions from the more experienced folks.

Thanks
There are alot of problems with measurements on the internet, is it 300 nit at 6500k , it could be 300 nits at 6800k and alot of monitors ship with default white points at crazy values like 7500k

So, unless you measure and tune it yourself, not knowing is still a problem.

4K hdr content is ALWAYS better than 1080p sdr content.

We're not at the point where producing 4K discs is so cheap that poorly made garbage is getting though.

As for tone mapping, Madvr makes assumptions, and it assumes whatever value you give it. But that value is not truly meaningful unless the monitor is calibrated or profiled (3dlut).

luckily madvr's hdr will still look pretty decent without any of that. The one thing that you might be missing out on is proper 2.2 gamma. The majority of monitors out there have botched gamma curves out of the box.
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Old 21st November 2020, 20:28   #60742  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
No one has the documentation needed to process Dolby Vision. You need to pay a lot of money for the docs to be able to support Dolby Vision, even for a "simple" passthrough.
Thanks. I thought that DV metadata is encoded in a manner of HDR10 metadata (except the case, when there is a separate video stream used to encode luma data), so it can just be passed through, and the monitor will deal with it (my monitor supports DV profile, and I'm able to run it in DV mode in Battlefield 1 and Mass Effect Andromeda, but with DV I have to use DV LL decoder in the form of Dolby Vision Extensions for Movies and TV app on Windows 10, which is not quite convenient).
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Old 21st November 2020, 22:50   #60743  |  Link
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How to activate a saved profile in madVR forcibly?
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Old 21st November 2020, 22:54   #60744  |  Link
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you can give it a hot key.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 02:14   #60745  |  Link
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Ok, so I am nuts and back at another attempt to pass through HDR to my projector, and see if I can get it set right to where I don't NEED tone mapping.

Running into a 'black crush' wall..

I set my Nvidia to RGB Full, MadVR to Limited, and PJ to limited.

I then selected Pass through HDR to Display, and checked send metadata.

When I have metadata checked, the display automatically converts to HDR (and shows as HDR in the PJ settings). However, my black levels are crushed. When I use the black level video (http://aaa-computerrepair.com/zip/02...k-level-v2.mp4) - I see NONE of the numbers - so totally crushed... (and no wonder I have felt that HDR seems 'dim'!!)

When I switch OFF the 'send metadata' - the projector does NOT show as being in BT.2020 or HDR. I can force the setting to HDR10 in the projector settings (which does look good on the PJ) - but the PJ is still not automatically registering that it is in BT.2020....

Also, regardless of the metadata setting, MadVR shows that it is outputting in DCI-P3 (HDR 1000 nits BT.2020 -> DCI-P3) - why is this? Can I have MadVR output in BT.2020 directly? Maybe that would help my issue?

I am totally confused - any help is greatly appreciated!!!
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Old 22nd November 2020, 03:01   #60746  |  Link
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Edit:

I have my Nvidia output set to RGB Full 12Bit.

So even though it isn't telling the projector it is HDR, it is still showing D3D11 10bit fullscreen windowed as the output. So it has the 'full' bit depth that it should natively.

Windows still shows output as SDR though when I check the display settings.

Anyway, when I FORCE select HDR10 on my projector - the picture comes alive... it looks GREAT. And I am down to 14ms frame timings since I am not doing all the HDR to SDR processing.

Have I found a 'loophole' for tone mapping? E.g. am I getting 'free' tone mapping through my projector? Or something similar?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 04:43   #60747  |  Link
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no device is able to display 10000 nits so every HDR device has to be to tone map.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 07:32   #60748  |  Link
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I figured out the black level issue - had to set a custom range in MadVR - just bumped the black cut off from 16 to 19 and that seemed to do the trick.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 14:42   #60749  |  Link
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How does madvr handle the rec2020 color container primaries, does it retarget them ?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 17:48   #60750  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
no device is able to display 10000 nits so every HDR device has to be to tone map.
"MadVR shows that it is outputting in DCI-P3 (HDR 1000 nits BT.2020 -> DCI-P3) - why is this?"

1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.

I think the -> DCI-P3 is referring to what the source was mastered in, not what it's outputting which is BT.2020.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 19:07   #60751  |  Link
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Guys, I'm having trouble setting my MadVR for 4k60 Videos from Next Gen Games. I watch them on a 1440P monitor using SSIM 1D Downscale.

My 5700 has a special Profile for 4k60, but I'm Getting 19ms and Dropping Frames. Which one should I drop first? "Chroma Upscaling from NGU High Quality to Medium Quality" or "Image Upscaling - Doubling - NGU Anti-Alising Medium"? What is the most important one to be higher? Other suggestions?

Thanks!
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Old 22nd November 2020, 19:33   #60752  |  Link
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I don't know much about games but as a rule of thumb, 4k doesn't need to be image upscaled because it's already at the highest scale but it could benefit from chroma upscale. So, if you're running out of resources with a 4k video, lower luma. Once you do, you might even be able to raise chroma a bit. Fwiw, on the flip side luma becomes more important than chroma when using lesser resolution video you want upscaled to your native display resolution such as 2160p. I don't know much about 1440p and how gamers flip flop resolutions around though.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 19:52   #60753  |  Link
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If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.
Yeah but LordX2 is using a projector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordX2 View Post
So even though it isn't telling the projector it is HDR, it is still showing D3D11 10bit fullscreen windowed as the output. So it has the 'full' bit depth that it should natively.
Windows still shows output as SDR though when I check the display settings.
Anyway, when I FORCE select HDR10 on my projector - the picture comes alive... it looks GREAT. And I am down to 14ms frame timings since I am not doing all the HDR to SDR processing.
Have I found a 'loophole' for tone mapping? E.g. am I getting 'free' tone mapping through my projector? Or something similar?
"D3D11 10 bit fullscreen window" is just the type of output surface from madVR to the GPU, this doesn't indicate if it's SDR or HDR.
So if I understand correctly, you're saying that by outputting HDR as if it is SDR and then manually forcing the mode on your display, you don't have crushed blacks anymore?
As huhn said, if your projector is running in HDR mode it has to tonemap, it's just that the quality of its tonemapping is most probably of lesser quality than madVR's tonemap.
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Last edited by el Filou; 22nd November 2020 at 20:07.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 20:20   #60754  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
I don't know much about games but as a rule of thumb, 4k doesn't need to be image upscaled because it's already at the highest scale but it could benefit from chroma upscale. So, if you're running out of resources with a 4k video, lower luma. Once you do, you might even be able to raise chroma a bit. Fwiw, on the flip side luma becomes more important than chroma when using lesser resolution video you want upscaled to your native display resolution such as 2160p. I don't know much about 1440p and how gamers flip flop resolutions around though.

Sorry forgot to show you my Settings

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Old 22nd November 2020, 20:43   #60755  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
Yeah but LordX2 is using a projector."D3D11 10 bit fullscreen window" is just the type of output surface from madVR to the GPU, this doesn't indicate if it's SDR or HDR.
So if I understand correctly, you're saying that by outputting HDR as if it is SDR and then manually forcing the mode on your display, you don't have crushed blacks anymore?
As huhn said, if your projector is running in HDR mode it has to tonemap, it's just that the quality of its tonemapping is most probably of lesser quality than madVR's tonemap.
The experience with the crushed blacks still has me confused.

When the video was in Fullscreen windowed 10bit mode - the blacks are crushed - and I have to adjust my MadVR range output to 19 for the black instead of the normal 16 for limited.

However, if I alt-enter and make the video windowed, it switches to 8 bit windowed, and then shows all the black bars.

So the black crush is happening on Windowed Fullscreen 10 bit.

Does that help explain anything?

Also a question on MadVR tonemapping and HDR output. I remember Asmodian saying that he used MadVR to tonemap, but then output the video as HDR for his screen. Why would you do this? To take advantage of the full BT.2020 (or DCI-P3) color scheme?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 21:32   #60756  |  Link
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Don't use 10 bit.

I usually use passthrough but the reason to tone map HDR is to use madVR's tone mapping instead of my TV's. Both methods take advantage of the full color gamut but madVR's is customizable and potentially better.

If you use madVR's tone mapping but do not output HDR the display will stay in SDR mode, on a projector this is fine but with an OLED TV switching to HDR mode offers a much better HDR image.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 22nd November 2020 at 21:45.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 21:52   #60757  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
"MadVR shows that it is outputting in DCI-P3 (HDR 1000 nits BT.2020 -> DCI-P3) - why is this?"

1000 nits, not 10,000. For example, my HDR device does 1500+ nits so passthrough is acceptable vs tone mapped imo.

I think the -> DCI-P3 is referring to what the source was mastered in, not what it's outputting which is BT.2020.
a file reports the native gamut but is still BT 2020 just ignore it.
my line is more about how HDR works even a 1500 display is tonemapping even a 4000k display is tone mapping. so the question is not if something is tone mapped it is who is tone mapping. just send it the TV nothing wrong with a 1000k+ display.

it has nothing todo with colorspace nothing to do with levels.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:00   #60758  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Don't use 10 bit.

I usually use passthrough but the reason to tone map HDR is to use madVR's tone mapping instead of my TV's. Both methods take advantage of the full color gamut but madVR's is customizable and potentially better.

If you use madVR's tone mapping but do not output HDR the display will stay in SDR mode, on a projector this is fine but with an OLED TV switching to HDR mode offers a much better HDR image.
I am watching HDR10 content - so wont it always be 10bit?

If I am watching HDR10 (BT.2020) content, on SDR (BT.709) how am I taking advantage of the full color gamut?

Man I hate being a noob! hahaha
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:13   #60759  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
If Alec246 is using a 1440p and playing back 2160p videos, then it should only use chroma upscaling then downscaling, and in that case it's better to lower the chroma upscaling quality a bit than choosing a lower quality downscaling.
.
But how do I disable Image Upscaling? In the Image Upscaling Tab, there is Upscaling and Doubling. Choosing Doubling NGU is considered Upscaling? How do I disable it?

Chroma Upscalign should I try to keep NGU? And I'm trying SSIM 2d Downscale but I may have to go back to 1D
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Old 22nd November 2020, 22:18   #60760  |  Link
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as long as you are not setting it to supersample madVR will automatically not use it if upscaling is not needed.
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