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Old 7th March 2021, 22:13   #401  |  Link
Yups
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I don't see any visual differences, even compared to the original the difference looks relatively small which I would expect from such high VMAF scores, the original looks a bit more detailed. I have to go much lower with the bitrate.
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Old 7th March 2021, 22:16   #402  |  Link
ReinerSchweinlin
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Rocketlake-S iGPU is based on Xe architecture:



https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-conten...chitecture.pdf
Thanx for posting infos about the performance of the new iGPUs from Intel and the Encoder. Appreciate it, usually there is not much substantial on the net about these..
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Old 18th March 2021, 16:01   #403  |  Link
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I am trying to find solid information on whether the Encoding Engine of the new UHD Quicksync Encoders in the Tiger Lake i3 are the same as the XE-Variants of the ULV i5 and I7. My thoughts are these:

Given the power draw of CPUs and the possibility of "quite good XE hardware-encodings" it might be worth a shot to switch to GEN12 Intel iGPU for transcoding a lot of files... Speed is not that important, as long as itīs effiecency is good. I donīt need 300fps for 1080p, but if I get more than realtime for a few watts - then a sloar-powered transcoding rig might be possible.

Iīd simply buy a NUC at the moment, but they seem hard to get...

@YUPS
Could you upload a small comparison encode of your XE Encoding with a very low bitrate? Letīs say a few seconds of a 720p cartoon at 200kbit/s, compared to x265 slow/anime/bframes8.. or similar? I think an extreme setting like that could reveal the differences the best.

Last edited by ReinerSchweinlin; 21st March 2021 at 12:28.
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Old 19th March 2021, 03:57   #404  |  Link
RanmaCanada
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Originally Posted by ReinerSchweinlin View Post
I am trying to find solid information on whether the Encoding Engine of the new UHD Quicksync Encoders in the Tiger Lake i3 are the same as the XE-Variants of the ULV i5 and I7. My thoughts are these:

Given the power draw of CPUs and the possibility of "quite good XE hardware-encodings" it might be worth a shot to switch to GEN7 Intel iGPU for transcoding a lot of files... Speed is not that important, as long as itīs effiecency is good. I donīt need 300fps for 1080p, but if I get more than realtime for a few watts - then a sloar-powered transcoding rig might be possible.

Iīd simply buy a NUC at the moment, but they seem hard to get...

@YUPS
Could you upload a small comparison encode of your XE Encoding with a very low bitrate? Letīs say a few seconds of a 720p cartoon at 200mbit/s, compared to x265 slow/anime/bframes8.. or similar? I think an extreme setting like that could reveal the differences the best.
I would say that the encode engine is not the same, as the engine is more than likely baked into the Xe Iris graphics.

Second, 200mbit/s is NOT a low bitrate. Maybe you mean 200kbit/s? And as for solar a solar powered unit, I would suggest just to get an older i3-8130u laptop. I am currently using one as my Plex/Emby server and it rarely goes above 15 watts in cpu usage. I do not know the full power usage, but it only has a 45 watt adapter.

If an older laptop is not your thang, then you could easily get a 10th gen i3 NUC for well under $400 USD. Or a 10th gen laptop for a few dollars more.
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Old 19th March 2021, 13:09   #405  |  Link
Yups
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Originally Posted by ReinerSchweinlin View Post
I am trying to find solid information on whether the Encoding Engine of the new UHD Quicksync Encoders in the Tiger Lake i3 are the same as the XE-Variants of the ULV i5 and I7. My thoughts are these:

Given the power draw of CPUs and the possibility of "quite good XE hardware-encodings" it might be worth a shot to switch to GEN7 Intel iGPU for transcoding a lot of files... Speed is not that important, as long as itīs effiecency is good. I donīt need 300fps for 1080p, but if I get more than realtime for a few watts - then a sloar-powered transcoding rig might be possible.

Iīd simply buy a NUC at the moment, but they seem hard to get...

@YUPS
Could you upload a small comparison encode of your XE Encoding with a very low bitrate? Letīs say a few seconds of a 720p cartoon at 200mbit/s, compared to x265 slow/anime/bframes8.. or similar? I think an extreme setting like that could reveal the differences the best.


Yes I can on the weekend. Do you have a small cartoon sample? I would expect all Xe based iGPUs have the same quicksync encoder, the datasheet is relatively clear on this.

If it's branded UHD or Iris Xe graphics is not relevant when they both are Xe based and RKL-S won't get Xe brand either and you are talking about Gen7 which is Ivy Bridge based.
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Old 19th March 2021, 19:39   #406  |  Link
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@YUPS the only creative commons or open source "modern cartoon" I know of is Sol Levante from Netflix. There are of course the standards like Buck Bunny, Tears of Steel, but they are over a decade old at this point and do not represent the current quality of animation, be it CGI or hand drawn. The data sheet you've linked also appears to be broken!
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Old 20th March 2021, 01:15   #407  |  Link
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Originally Posted by RanmaCanada View Post
@YUPS the only creative commons or open source "modern cartoon" I know of is Sol Levante from Netflix. There are of course the standards like Buck Bunny, Tears of Steel, but they are over a decade old at this point and do not represent the current quality of animation, be it CGI or hand drawn. The data sheet you've linked also appears to be broken!
I don't know that Sol Levante represents "modern animation" so much as "future animation." It's UHD HDR and a serious compression stress test with all the sharp circular lines moving around.

It's the hardest-to-encode publicly available source without grain I can think of. x265 gets serious artifacts with it at some sections, even in 1080p24 at 9 Mbps.
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Old 20th March 2021, 01:20   #408  |  Link
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Just looking at a test encode, with --crf 20.5 and --vbv-maxrate of 900, I get >700 frames with a QP >40. I set up a 25 Mbps peak placebo encode to run overnight to see what's possible here.
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Old 20th March 2021, 03:48   #409  |  Link
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@YUPS the only creative commons or open source "modern cartoon" I know of is Sol Levante from Netflix. There are of course the standards like Buck Bunny, Tears of Steel, but they are over a decade old at this point and do not represent the current quality of animation, be it CGI or hand drawn. The data sheet you've linked also appears to be broken!

Try this link: https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/631121

If it doesn't work you have to go to Intel ark. I was trying the Sol Levante....on both Quicksync and NVENC there is no hardware decoding and therefore high CPU utilization when I encode it. It's a 12bit ProRes 4444 video, maybe that's why. Should I use CRF or bitrate mode for x265?
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Old 20th March 2021, 06:13   #410  |  Link
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Try this link: https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/631121

If it doesn't work you have to go to Intel ark. I was trying the Sol Levante....on both Quicksync and NVENC there is no hardware decoding and therefore high CPU utilization when I encode it. It's a 12bit ProRes 4444 video, maybe that's why. Should I use CRF or bitrate mode for x265?
From what I take away from the Intel Documentation is that only the Xe graphics have the new advanced features. As for what to try, the poster wanted 200kbit encode, so I would just do that, if possible.

Even looking at the processors, the core i3 11th gen only have UHD graphics, while the core i5 and above have Iris Xe.

Last edited by RanmaCanada; 20th March 2021 at 06:25.
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Old 20th March 2021, 11:02   #411  |  Link
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From what I take away from the Intel Documentation is that only the Xe graphics have the new advanced features. As for what to try, the poster wanted 200kbit encode, so I would just do that, if possible.

Even looking at the processors, the core i3 11th gen only have UHD graphics, while the core i5 and above have Iris Xe.


All of the Tigerlake models are Xe architecture based, depending on the EU count they do get the Iris Xe branding or just UHD like for Rocket Lake-S. The datasheet says up to 96 EUs, there is no restriction for the lower EU count Xe, the FF/media unit should be the same.

i7 Tigerlake= 96 EUs Xe
i5 Tigerlake= 80 EUs Xe
i3 Tigerlake= 48 EUs Xe
Rocketlake-S= 32/24 EUs Xe

200 kbit on this UHD HDR 10bit video is not a feasible bitrate, the content isn't easy. I think 1500 kbit is a more realistic very low starting point. What VMAF scores are acceptable for you?
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Old 20th March 2021, 23:30   #412  |  Link
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All of the Tigerlake models are Xe architecture based, depending on the EU count they do get the Iris Xe branding or just UHD like for Rocket Lake-S. The datasheet says up to 96 EUs, there is no restriction for the lower EU count Xe, the FF/media unit should be the same.

i7 Tigerlake= 96 EUs Xe
i5 Tigerlake= 80 EUs Xe
i3 Tigerlake= 48 EUs Xe
Rocketlake-S= 32/24 EUs Xe

200 kbit on this UHD HDR 10bit video is not a feasible bitrate, the content isn't easy. I think 1500 kbit is a more realistic very low starting point. What VMAF scores are acceptable for you?
interesting. And I dunno, we need to ask ReinerSchweinlin as they were the ones that wanted the tests in the first place!
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Old 20th March 2021, 23:52   #413  |  Link
Yups
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Originally Posted by ReinerSchweinlin View Post

@YUPS
Could you upload a small comparison encode of your XE Encoding with a very low bitrate? Letīs say a few seconds of a 720p cartoon at 200mbit/s, compared to x265 slow/anime/bframes8.. or similar? I think an extreme setting like that could reveal the differences the best.

I have tested Sol Levante on my GPUs and also did one x265 run. I've choosen x265 slow main10 10 bit and max 150 gop (for all). And software decoding on all GPUs, the decoding bottleneck on Iris Xe FF is quite big, it's usually a lot faster than the GPU+FF version.


Code:
    
Sol Levante                        VMAF      speed       bitrate

Quicksync H265 (27.20.100.9316)
HD630 CQP best                     63.83     15 fps     1353 kbit

Iris Xe CQP FF best                71.09     22 fps     1338 kbit
Iris Xe CQP best                   71.70     20 fps     1320 kbit

NVENC H265 (470.05)
GTX1080 CQP best                   60.57     24 fps     1328 kbit


x265 (Staxrip 2.1.8.5)
i7-1165G7 slow                     68.55     1.4 fps    1326 kbit
Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12oT...ew?usp=sharing


VMAF below 80 is not that great, I would choose a higher bitrate.
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Old 21st March 2021, 12:47   #414  |  Link
ReinerSchweinlin
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Originally Posted by RanmaCanada View Post
I would say that the encode engine is not the same, as the engine is more than likely baked into the Xe Iris graphics.

Second, 200mbit/s is NOT a low bitrate. Maybe you mean 200kbit/s? [/URL]
Thanx for catching the type, of course kbit/s

@YUPS Thanks for taking the effort to compare and make a testsample. The results are very interesting, indeed. Too bad I sold all my RTX Cards at the moment - a GEN20 NVENC Encode to compare would be interesting.

The reason why I mentioned a low bitrate cartoon was that this is my usual workflow for determining the limits and capabilities of an encoder setting... Of course higher bitrates are always better for the result, but to see what an encoder does if he is really limited gives me a better point for judgement. I am fully aware that this is biased somehow and that someone not caring about efficiency or drive space or bandwith might have other priorities.

The used Example really is a tough one With cartoon, I meant something like Family Guy (line art style) - which is a little easier to judge (for me at least). Modern Anime rarely has anything from a classic cartoon. But the example still shows that Iris XE seems quite capable..

I will look for a suitable, free sample

hm, the question remains if the smaller models of the tiger lake series with the UHD called iGPUs have the exact same encoders. The argument of course is valid, that its derived from XE Grafix, but I canīt find 100% evidence if thatīs the case. IMHO the datasheet leaves room for interpreation (unless I miss something, maybe you can the point me to the page). I remember cases like the 1650, which officially is TURING Generation, but the one thing that wasn`t was the NVENC Engine, which is VOLTA, so no B-Frame support..

If the smaller and cheaper Tiger Lake had the same Encoding Engine, that could really make up for a very nice low power encoding/Streaming/transcoding rig... If itīs a little less powerful than the Variants with the higher EU Count - wouldnīt harm my usecase

@RanmaCanada
Thanx for the suggestions about older laptops.. I have a bunch of older machines with low power chips, NUCs, SOCs, Laptops, etc... and these are the current candidates I use for solar powered usecases... So far, the Quality of the hardware-encoding engines wasnīt en par with x265 for a given bitrate, but with the XE Engines it seems to become competetive (while still being not power hungry)... The GEN20 NVENC isnīt too bad either... but I know of now system with lets say a 1660 which consumes as less as an XE bases system promisses to be capable off..
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Old 21st March 2021, 13:08   #415  |  Link
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This free video file of a blender Project would be interesting to test with a very low bitrate. I am fully aware that the results won`t be what one wants as end result - itīs more of a test how the encoder is dealing with very limited conditions.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ull_movie.webm

Yes, iīts already compressed, but thats fine for me and represents a usecase for many of us anyway This video has a nice mix of "cartoon style" still scenes with a little gradient in the back, defined, sharp lines in the front, scenes with a little more action, some scrolling/paning, some textures, etc... The resolution is fine, if itīs no trouble for you, Iīd love to see it in 720p. (There is a reason for that: Modern encoders seem to be more optimized for higher resolutions and also the usecase calls for smaller bandwiths, which results in smaller resolutions... I found some interesting effects in these scenarios: While the same footage in 4K looks very good at edges in all encoders used - scaling it down to 720p and then viewing it on the same screen again (upscaled while playing) reveals artefacts at sharp edges - which now are much more visible than before - even if the footage wasnīt "visually super sharp" and from the viewing distance looks almost identical in terms of "optical resolution"... To deal with this effect on smaller resolutions, we all "know" that lowering the Q-Factor in constant-Q Encodings is a good idea..
So I came up with this tesprocedure of mine - encoding in a low resolution with a low bitrate reveals "a lot I need to know about an encoder to judge it".. Then i trust my eyes

Thanx for helping me out!
And thanx @all for commenting, of course.
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Old 21st March 2021, 13:20   #416  |  Link
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While looking at you encodes, I noticed something:

The hardware-encoders all were able to detect the end-credits as simple paning from bottom->up and therefore use very little bitrate (as it should be), while the x265 encode uses a LOT more bitrate for this section.. Ill try to replicate that and dig a little into the search patterns. I am sure that this makes an impact of the overall score, because if almost 1/4 of the clip gets a magnitude more bitrate than needed, the demanding rest of the clip is starving...


BTW: Back in "the days", there was "bitrate viewer 1.4" for MPEG2 files... Any successor around?

just downlaoding "SOL LEVANTE" - the prores version is so big and the download speed so slow (not maxing out my Internet at all) - which version did you use? (Or did you wait 16 hours?).

Last edited by ReinerSchweinlin; 21st March 2021 at 13:28.
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Old 21st March 2021, 13:48   #417  |  Link
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Intel 11th Gen Desktop (Rocket Lake S, 14nm), only the i5 and up have Xe graphics (UHD-750 and UHD-730 for the i5-11400).
They have a fraction of the igpu Execution Units of the 10nm mobile Tiger Lake parts, but it is assumed that the media encoder/decoder block is the same (AV1 hw decoder, hevc encoder).
! The i3 and pentium are just rebranded current gen.

The 6core/12threads i5-11500 and i5-11400 are stated to have 65W TDP, and the T parts 35W TDP. They are sub-200$ msrp parts which can be used with the new B560 motherboards (PCIe-4 and DDR4 3200MHz).
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Old 21st March 2021, 13:59   #418  |  Link
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thanks for adding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by butterw2 View Post
Intel 11th Gen Desktop (Rocket Lake S, 14nm), ...... but it is assumed that the media encoder/decoder block is the same
And thats exactly where clarification would be welcome
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Old 21st March 2021, 14:19   #419  |  Link
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The feature set is confirmed as being the same, whether the result is 100% the same (after the 14nm backport) we will likely only learn when the chips become widely available.

The main takeaway for me was that the new decoder/encoder will not be available for the cheapest chips/motherboards right now.

UHD-750/730 also has HDMI 2.0b support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lake#GPU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_...ogy#Integrated

Last edited by butterw2; 21st March 2021 at 14:34. Reason: +Intel Integrated Graphics
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Old 21st March 2021, 17:24   #420  |  Link
Yups
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Originally Posted by ReinerSchweinlin View Post

hm, the question remains if the smaller models of the tiger lake series with the UHD called iGPUs have the exact same encoders. The argument of course is valid, that its derived from XE Grafix, but I canīt find 100% evidence if thatīs the case. IMHO the datasheet leaves room for interpreation (unless I miss something, maybe you can the point me to the page). I remember cases like the 1650, which officially is TURING Generation, but the one thing that wasn`t was the NVENC Engine, which is VOLTA, so no B-Frame support..

RKL-S datasheet volume 1 isn't available yet but not sure if you will find any more concrete in it. The thing is Intels media engine version is tied to the graphics architecture up to now, there is no differentiation like on Nvidia. That's why you most likely won't find something more concrete in the RKL-S datasheet because there is no need for it. The feature list from Intels open source driver is identical on Tigerlake and Rocketlake.

And by the way this might change in the future starting with Alder Lake, the various IP blocks can be upgraded at a different cadence regardless of the graphics architecture, the Xe LP graphics in future generations may get a media or display upgrade.

Quote:
The arrival of this new display architecture coincides with a general disaggregation of Intel GPUs' architecture version numbering for the different component IP blocks. Going forward it isn't accurate to talk about a platform using INTEL_GEN() anymore since the various IP blocks (graphics, media, display) are moving to independent internal numbering schemes that may have different granularity and move at different cadences; the hardware teams have asked us to start tracking these values separately for "graphics," "media," and "display" such that anywhere that we need to do a numerical comparison on the architecture version, we should need to use an IP-specific version number instead of INTEL_GEN().
https://patchwork.freedesktop.org/series/87886/

Quote:
Originally Posted by butterw2 View Post
Intel 11th Gen Desktop (Rocket Lake S, 14nm), only the i5 and up have Xe graphics (UHD-750 and UHD-730 for the i5-11400).
They have a fraction of the igpu Execution Units of the 10nm mobile Tiger Lake parts, but it is assumed that the media encoder/decoder block is the same (AV1 hw decoder, hevc encoder).
! The i3 and pentium are just rebranded current gen.

The 6core/12threads i5-11500 and i5-11400 are stated to have 65W TDP, and the T parts 35W TDP. They are sub-200$ msrp parts which can be used with the new B560 motherboards (PCIe-4 and DDR4 3200MHz).

The rebranded i3 are Cometlake and 10th Gen, they are not sold as RKL-S 11th Gen.
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