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Old 1st October 2018, 00:24   #641  |  Link
imhh11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shekh View Post
ok
ps. I don't get it, you ask which codec, and then show test which is 3 months old. Why
Out of curiosity, what hw you use for capture? From which source?
as I said, I wanted to know the opinion of the doom9 expert and i have been busy lately so i didnt really use my card since i got it 3 months ago but now im back at it... sorry for posting my first test.

I'm using a decklink black magic card and the source is a UHD-BD played with my HTPC, my uhd player or my media player, it doesn't matter. the results are all the same. this one was done with the Nvidia shield (USB).

Last edited by imhh11; 1st October 2018 at 01:47.
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Old 1st October 2018, 03:56   #642  |  Link
WorBry
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Originally Posted by imhh11 View Post
I'm using a decklink black magic card...
I see FFMPEG supports capture over BMD Decklink:

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Capture/Blackmagic

Maybe worth looking into as an alternative if you are familiar with FFMPEG. I don't know how feasible it would be to capture and encode to x265, tone mapping included, as a single command operation. You'd have to research the subject and test.

You could certainly do it with FFMPEG as a two stage process - capturing first to a 10-bit YUV422 'near lossless' intermediate, like DNxHR HQX. But I can't see that would offer any particular advantage over your existing two step process - I'd stick with VDub2 capture to Cineform (Filmscan 2) if that works for you. Just bear in mind that the resulting bitrates (and so file sizes) of your Cineform captures will be somewhat dependent on the complexity of the video content. But the same applies to lossless formats, like MagicYUV, also.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:07   #643  |  Link
poisondeathray
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I think there are some issues, at least with screenshots provided in post 639 . I made sure to save them and verified them by size. I didn't look at the "RAW" versions, just the others

The biggest easy one to see is the bottom of the blue dress . Look at the texture loss at the bottom in both magicyuv and cineform compared to the source. The noise and grain pattern is smoothed over .

There are some color sampling issues too . Look at the small yellow flower spots. Some of the smaller ones almost disappear in some spots in the cineform screenshot . The source has more "orange" spots, but they become yellow and more desaturated . Even the magicyuv screenshot is affected (albeit less)

I think there is an issue with that capture setup , and or method of taking screenshots

EDIT: or did I misunderstand ? Those were re-encoded x265 screenshots ? So those were caused by x265 ? That would make more sense

Last edited by poisondeathray; 1st October 2018 at 05:28.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:11   #644  |  Link
imhh11
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the smoothing on grain is definitely coming from the x265 encoder even if I used --no-soa and --no-strong-intra-smoothing
thanks for pointing out the yellow flowers, I didn't notice it. I'll have to investigate what's causing this, I don't think this is an encoding issue.

screenshots were made the same way with madvr hdr to sdr pixels shader (200nits) so this is not the issue but just to be sure, I'll try to encode the source with the same setting.
I'll also try to capture uncompressed to see if it changes anything.

Last edited by imhh11; 1st October 2018 at 12:16.
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Old 1st October 2018, 16:16   #645  |  Link
poisondeathray
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You re-encoded it to 10bit 4:2:0 right? So you would expect some color loss going from 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 , so that could be within expected limits

But then again, the original, original, was UHD BD right? UHD 4:2:0 ? So there might be a problem...
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Old 1st October 2018, 16:44   #646  |  Link
imhh11
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yes, the source is 10bits 4:2:0, shied played it in 12bit 4:2:2, capture is 10bits 4:2:2 and encode is 10bits 4:2:0.

how come it changes only the colors of those yellow flowers and not the other colors? and how come cineform is worse?
i'll test uncompressed later today.
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Old 1st October 2018, 16:51   #647  |  Link
poisondeathray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imhh11 View Post
yes, the source is 10bits 4:2:0, shied played it in 12bit 4:2:2, capture is 10bits 4:2:2 and encode is 10bits 4:2:0.

how come it changes only the colors of those yellow flowers and not the other colors? and how come cineform is worse?
i'll test uncompressed later today.
I don't know, but it's unexpected.

And you'd expected cineform to be very slightly worse, but there are more differences there than I would expect
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Old 1st October 2018, 18:27   #648  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shekh View Post
NVenc: there is no way for capture now, and not coming soon.
FYI, That SDK I gave you awhile back had source code showing how to add NVenc.

-----

Any Progress on adding BT.2020 / ST.2084? It's been about a year since I last asked, Maybe you made some progress in that area or adding HDR to capture mode.

Also any chance we will see more functions added to x265 codecs (Like the VUI & Bitstream) areas?

Last edited by Revan654; 1st October 2018 at 18:59.
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Old 1st October 2018, 18:58   #649  |  Link
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Originally Posted by WorBry View Post
I see FFMPEG supports capture over BMD Decklink:

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Capture/Blackmagic

Maybe worth looking into as an alternative if you are familiar with FFMPEG. I don't know how feasible it would be to capture and encode to x265, tone mapping included, as a single command operation. You'd have to research the subject and test.
x265 by it self is very doable(CPU Only), I've done it on my Skylake CPU(Quad Core).

I used the following Codec, Which works in VD2(It's like the x264 Codec): https://sourceforge.net/projects/mpx.../x265vfw_v280/

As for FFMPEG, It's kind of doable from what I understand, but you are likely to run into Framedrops due to the Tonemapping + x265 at the same time. It would be very useful to split it up the process on multiple GPU's. One GPU handles all the tonemapping and the other deals with compression. Not sure if FFMPEG support multiple process on different devices.

There are other Standalone Software that Supports Blackmagic like Adobe and Vegas. Along with there own DaVinci Resolve. If all else fails you could try those.

If External encoding is ever added to VD2 Capture mode. Allot more doors would open. You could pipe data through to other encoders.

I know it was said it was possible but, not sure if any kind of development has been done for that.

If I was familiar with C# I would help out the dev on VD2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imhh11 View Post
as I said, I wanted to know the opinion of the doom9 expert and i have been busy lately so i didnt really use my card since i got it 3 months ago but now im back at it... sorry for posting my first test.

I'm using a decklink black magic card and the source is a UHD-BD played with my HTPC, my uhd player or my media player, it doesn't matter. the results are all the same. this one was done with the Nvidia shield (USB).
Blackmagic is famous for having buggy drivers and some of there devices are at the high end when comparing them to similar products. You do get full support of all there software and 3rd Support, Which is likely why the price is much higher.

The buggy Drivers is one of the reason why I avoided them when I upgraded my Capture System. Plus at the time starting price for the card was 1500 dollars vs another company(Exactly same features) for 800 dollars.

There Win7 drivers for Intensity series is a mess.
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Old 1st October 2018, 21:30   #650  |  Link
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Yep, BM is not very reliable- not the best hardware (eg. poor fans, electronics) and more important terrible drivers which keep breaking things every release.
AJA is miles better.
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Old 1st October 2018, 22:59   #651  |  Link
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Yep, BM is not very reliable- not the best hardware (eg. poor fans, electronics) and more important terrible drivers which keep breaking things every release.
AJA is miles better.
You also have to read the specs very carefully, Some of the wording can be very misleading at times. The BD Decklink for HDR 4K + 60fps. The colorspace only goes up to BT.709. There 8K model however does reach BT.2020 but it doesn't have any HDMI.

I went with Magewell for my Setup, Since they were the only ones I could find that supported Fully Rec.2020 and Had allot of hardware Functions that are missing in others.

Base Functions can reach 12 Bits as well with full 7.1 Audio. If your PC can handle it 144FPS recording.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 01:30   #652  |  Link
imhh11
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ok so after a couple more tests, I cannot get the same colors as the source with those small yellow/orange flowers. Magicyuv, cineform, uncompressed, other players, MediaExpress: all the same. it's not an encoding issue because encoding the source directly with the same settings output proper colors
so unless im doing something wrong in Vdub (doubt it), i guess it's because the decklink mini 4k cannot do Bt2020 even if they say it can on the box. smh


Last edited by imhh11; 2nd October 2018 at 02:44.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 02:54   #653  |  Link
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Dumb question (maybe)...but what was the reported colorspace of the Cineform and MagicYUV captures? You didn't include that portion of information from the MediaInfo report. And your file uploaded didn't include samples of the original captures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imhh11 View Post
here's the files:
https://uptobox.com/vs384dq3ssci

Format : CineForm
Codec ID : CFHD
Codec ID/Info : CineForm 10-bit Visually Perfect HD (Wavelet)
Duration : 30 s 989 ms
Bit rate : 426 Mb/s
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.144
Stream size : 1.54 GiB (100%)


Format : M0Y2
Codec ID : M0Y2
Duration : 31 s 490 ms
Bit rate : 870 Mb/s
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 4.373
Stream size : 3.19 GiB (100%)
My (maybe dumb) point being, even if decklink does output Rec2020, surely the10-bit 422 Cineform and MagicYUV captures are assuming and encoding as Rec709 ? I don't see any configuration setting for Rec2020 color-space input in my copy of MagicYUV (2.0.0 Ultimate)
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Old 2nd October 2018, 02:58   #654  |  Link
poisondeathray
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Originally Posted by imhh11 View Post
ok so after a couple more tests, I cannot get the same colors as the source with those small yellow/orange flowers. Magicyuv, cineform, uncompressed, other players, MediaExpress: all the same. it's not an encoding issue because encoding the source directly with the same settings output proper colors
so unless im doing something wrong in Vdub (doubt it), i guess it's because the decklink mini 4k cannot do Bt2020 even if they say it can on the box. smh

Did you check x265 with lower crf or lossless ?

Because I suspect lack of Rec.2020 support won't cause those types of issues you're referring to . It looks more like a chroma subsampling or lossy CbCr (high quantization) issue in the screenshots (but that could just as easy be from x265). Take a look at the Cb or Cr plane (granted, I'm looking at an 8bit PNG, but you can see right away the problems) , you will see general blurriness and encoding artifacts . Small color details like those small flowers will be blurred away

eg.
#Your PNG
ConvertToYV24()
UtoY # or VtoY

So check lower crf or lossless x265 first, if problem still there go back 1 more step and look at direct capture (e.g magicyuv)
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Old 2nd October 2018, 03:08   #655  |  Link
imhh11
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Originally Posted by WorBry View Post
Dumb question (maybe)...but what was the reported colorspace of the Cineform and MagicYUV captures? You didn't include that portion of information from the MediaInfo report. And your file uploaded didn't include samples of the original captures.



My (maybe dumb) point being, even if decklink does output Rec2020, surely the10-bit 422 Cineform and MagicYUV captures are assuming and encoding as Rec709 ?
that was all the information from the MediaInfo, there is nothing more. But when I play the file madvr is saying/guessing bt709, perhaps because the flag is not there. magicyuv is reporting rec709 as well.

Capturing uncompressed in Mediaexpress gave the same result.

if I make an mkv with the avi file, mediainfo report more but still nothing on bt709 /bt2020

Video
ID : 1
Format : V_MS/VFW/FOURCC / M0Y2
Codec ID : V_MS/VFW/FOURCC / M0Y2
Duration : 1 s 710 ms
Bit rate : 398 Mb/s
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (23976/1000) FPS
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.002
Stream size : 81.2 MiB (100%)
Default : Yes
Forced : No






Quote:
Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
Did you check x265 with lower crf or lossless ?

Because I suspect lack of Rec.2020 support won't cause those types of issues you're referring to . It looks more like a chroma subsampling or lossy CbCr (high quantization) issue in the screenshots (but that could just as easy be from x265). Take a look at the Cb or Cr plane (granted, I'm looking at an 8bit PNG, but you can see right away the problems) , you will see general blurriness and encoding artifacts . Small color details like those small flowers will be blurred away

eg.
#Your PNG
ConvertToYV24()
UtoY # or VtoY

So check lower crf or lossless x265 first, if problem still there go back 1 more step and look at direct capture (e.g magicyuv)
the encode were CRF17 slow. but thats a good idea, i'll try lossless. thanks

when i encoded the source with the same setting CRF17 slow.. the colors stay perfect

Last edited by imhh11; 2nd October 2018 at 03:13.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 03:16   #656  |  Link
poisondeathray
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when i encoded the source with the same setting CRF17 slow.. the colors stay perfect
Right, but look at the U, V planes . It show more damage than up/down scaling only

4:2:0 => 4:2:2 => 4:2:0 . You would expect some blurring if they were not using nearest neighbor (aka point resize in avisynth) , so very small color details will be expected to be blurred. But you have compression artifacts on top as well. Encoding source bypasses that up/down scaling step

But it still looks like something additional is going on too
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Old 2nd October 2018, 03:22   #657  |  Link
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ok, i'll try the lossless x265 tomorrow.
I might have something wrong with my pc. if nothing work, maybe a fresh windows installation would fix my issue.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 05:30   #658  |  Link
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that was all the information from the MediaInfo, there is nothing more.
Ah, yes you're right, MediaInfo doesn't report the color matrix/primaries. Vdub2 will report the Cineform capture as Rec709 though.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 12:38   #659  |  Link
shekh
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Originally Posted by Revan654 View Post
Any Progress on adding BT.2020 / ST.2084? It's been about a year since I last asked, Maybe you made some progress in that area or adding HDR to capture mode.

Also any chance we will see more functions added to x265 codecs (Like the VUI & Bitstream) areas?
A lot of code around formats was cleaned, new colorspaces are more possible now.

x265: which options will be game changing? I reviewed the list and honestly all remaining options look too low level (do not fit simple UI).
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Old 3rd October 2018, 00:45   #660  |  Link
imhh11
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Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
Did you check x265 with lower crf or lossless ?


So check lower crf or lossless x265 first, if problem still there go back 1 more step and look at direct capture (e.g magicyuv)
Hi, I tried CRF0 very slow preset and the blurring on grain is less worse but the little flowers are still washed out.


tone mapped
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121830


I tried re-installing the BM drivers, no luck

maybe its the best my card can do.


magic yuv 422 8 bit HDYC capture VS source ----> no issue at all ?? how the hell..
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121857

Last edited by imhh11; 5th October 2018 at 01:14.
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