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Old 15th December 2015, 23:14   #34681  |  Link
KoD
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Originally Posted by Kod View Post
Hi madshi, you were right, the settings are reset, both the file and the registry entries get deleted, so that's not the reason why the subtitle positioning got fixed. In fact, after doing what you asked me, I can now say with certainty that the subtitle positioning issue happens only when DXVA is used for the scaling of the luma and of the chroma. If DXVA is not used for scaling, then the subtitles are at their proper location in the image. It's as if DXVA is used for scaling, then the subtitles are kept at their original position in the frame in absolute values, which is now somewhere in the middle-left part of the image. And yes, using software decoding + DXVA scaling also shows this issue; it's not related to QuickSync.
In order to reproduce this, could you send me 2 "settings.bin" files (from the madVR folder, or if madVR doesn't have write access to that folder, it's in "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\madshi\madVR\Settings"), one where subtitle positioning works and one where it doesn't work - together with a small sample?
- movie file here (35Mb)
- settings files here; when everything is fine, jinc is used for resizing; when it's not fine, DXVA is used for resizing
- screenshots here, for how it looks when DXVA resizing is used, in windowed and fullscreen modes, because of deinterlacing performed by madVR:


- screenshots here, for how it looks when DXVA resizing is used, in windowed and fullscreen modes, deinterlacing not performed by madVR but by the decoder itself (in order to show that it's not the deinterlacing that's causing this, but the DXVA resizing):



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I confirm there is an AR issue for DVD playback myself, with a DVD of my own. But this is not new, it's here since at least 0.89.15 (did not test further back).

The copyright notice is 4:3 and is displayed properly, the studio intro is also 4:3 and no issues, and then the menu appears, which is a static image, and should be displayed as 16:9, but madVR displays it as 4:3. In EVR it's 16:9. No sample from me, but I think there needs to be the two videos included as well to reproduce this, and I don't know how to cut the vobs with the intro videos in.
Sample?
- VIDEO_TS folder here (67Mb)

Last edited by KoD; 15th December 2015 at 23:33. Reason: added screenshots for the case when no deinterlacing is performed by madVR
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Old 15th December 2015, 23:15   #34682  |  Link
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Originally Posted by GREG1292 View Post
Madishi on a 9500LC crt projector what is the nit capabilities of the projector? Have all the latest direct chain mods and Moomee card
and I can see changes all the way up to 10000nit.
Set it to 400 (lowest) for now. There's no way it will even be approaching that. It's almost certainly <100 nits, and very likely <50.

I can't think of many consumer displays, CRT or not, which would exceed 400 nits brightness.

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23p actually means 24000/1001 ~= 23.976 Hz or whatever value close to that the GPU really does. It is for watching blurays at their native frame rate.
Film is typically shot in 24p and then converted to 23p for sale in NTSC regions.
24p would be the closest thing to the "native rate" if you're going to use ReClock or similar.

Last edited by 6233638; 15th December 2015 at 23:17.
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Old 15th December 2015, 23:31   #34683  |  Link
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23p actually means 24000/1001 ~= 23.976 Hz or whatever value close to that the GPU really does. It is for watching blurays at their native frame rate.
I've just never seen "23,976 Hz" or "23 Hz" in the Windows' refresh rate pull-down list. Maybe because I never connected LCD/Plasma TV to the video card.
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Old 15th December 2015, 23:54   #34684  |  Link
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[QUOTE=6233638;1749987]Set it to 400 (lowest) for now. There's no way it will even be approaching that. It's almost certainly <100 nits, and very likely <50.

I can't think of many consumer displays, CRT or not, which would exceed 400 nits brightness.

Interesting will do some more testing tonight.

Thanks
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Old 16th December 2015, 02:40   #34685  |  Link
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How do we know that it's flawed?
by watching a movie at 23p. is kind of complicated and on the other side very easy. if you know how proper 23/24p looks it is very easy to see if a screen is doing a 3:2 cadence with the image. if you are used to this cadence by watching broadcast than you may not notice this.
with other word i use my eyes.

they test this: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-...sung?uxtv=86de

nearly all cheaper ones fail this simple test.
if the panel isn't 120 hz they usually doing a 3:2 cadence.
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Windows XP reports the following supported modes for my Epson EH-TW9200 projector: "24 Hz, Interlaced", "25 Hz, Interlaced", "30 Hz, Interlaced", "50 Hz", "60 Hz". The appropriate section of Catalyst Control Center doesn't mention interlacing for 24/25/30 Hz; I don't note any issues playing progressive videos on 24 Hz. Does that mean that Windows XP is wrong about "Interlaced"?
windows XP doesn't support 23p and 59p. so i would be shocked if it read this wrong too.

and by interlaced it most likely means 50 field with 25i and by sending 25 progressive images to the device and flag them intelraced nothing is happening to them they are just repeated if the deinterlacer is of normal quality. i didn't even know there is a spec for 24i.

crimson removed the refreshrate selection. in the past there where more options than windows showed but AMD doesn't care i guess. this driver...

btw. this is leaving the topic of display mode if you have questions about this general HTPC stuff feel free to ask in a new thread i try to answer them.
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Old 16th December 2015, 02:41   #34686  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Film is typically shot in 24p and then converted to 23p for sale in NTSC regions.
24p would be the closest thing to the "native rate" if you're going to use ReClock or similar.
Yes but if you do not want to resample the audio you need 23.976 Hz.
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Old 16th December 2015, 07:08   #34687  |  Link
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crimson removed the refreshrate selection. in the past there where more options than windows showed but AMD doesn't care i guess. this driver...
Just wanted to point out Crimson has a new Custom Resolution Section (Display>Additional Settings) that allows you to do some very nice and clean fine tuning of custom resolutions... Although switching between these custom resolutions now has to be done through the Windows control panel, not quite ideal.

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Old 16th December 2015, 07:56   #34688  |  Link
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for the new version, looking forward messing with "thin edges" together with double SR.

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Just wanted to point out Crimson has a new Custom Resolution Section (Display>Additional Settings) that allows you to do some very nice and clean fine tuning of custom resolutions
Still lags behind 13.12 raw performance wise I guess?

At least it comes with an option to output >8bit FWIR which 13.12 lacks badly and no more kludgy CRU needed in extreme cases from what you're saying, 'bout time. Now eagerly awaiting new AMD GPU's and SuperSampling SR in mVR

Having chroma SR updated with the same algo as luma SR would be darn sweet too if any possible but I guess that's already on madshi's list somewhere so I'll sit tight

Last edited by leeperry; 16th December 2015 at 08:01.
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Old 16th December 2015, 09:05   #34689  |  Link
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for the new version, looking forward messing with "thin edges" together with double SR.


Still lags behind 13.12 raw performance wise I guess?

At least it comes with an option to output >8bit FWIR which 13.12 lacks badly and no more kludgy CRU needed in extreme cases from what you're saying, 'bout time. Now eagerly awaiting new AMD GPU's and SuperSampling SR in mVR

Having chroma SR updated with the same algo as luma SR would be darn sweet too if any possible but I guess that's already on madshi's list somewhere so I'll sit tight
Try SuperRes(3) + crispen edges(1.0) for 2x scaling factors. I prefer this to SuperRes + thin edges.
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Old 16th December 2015, 14:06   #34690  |  Link
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Yes but if you do not want to resample the audio you need 23.976 Hz.
So with NTSC video (29.976 fps and 3:2 pulldown) the correct tag is simply "deint=Film", which will result in a 23.976 frame rate.

And with 25 fps PAL to remove the speedup using Reclock, the correct tags are "deint=Film frameRate=24p"? Or maybe just "frameRate=24p" if it's flagged as progressive and no deinterlacing/IVTC is needed? Or should this also be tagged 23.976? (I can't use the global setting for PAL speedup in madVR because I've got some native 25p videos, which would get screwed up.)

Last edited by Uoppi; 16th December 2015 at 14:10.
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Old 16th December 2015, 16:50   #34691  |  Link
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The quality/reliability of madVR's IVTC algorithm is pretty good. It's extremely unlikely that running it on a progressive Blu-Ray rip will do any harm. It should simply detect that the video is a 2:2 cadence and not do anything other than analyzing the frames and detecting/confirming the 2:2 cadence.
I've come across a few scenes in some NTSC DVDs where the madVR IVTC algorithm freaks out and drops the 3:2 pattern and goes unknown before recovering when the shot changes. There are usually a lot of shallow angle horizontal lines present when this happens, like the siding on a house, or tiles on a background wall. Is it possible to restrict what madVR's IVTC algorithm looks for, or to force only a certain pattern, like 3:2, to reduce the chances of it getting lost?

FWIW, I've never seen it have a problem with HD 1080i60 3:2 content.
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Old 17th December 2015, 00:22   #34692  |  Link
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I've come across a few scenes in some NTSC DVDs where the madVR IVTC algorithm freaks out and drops the 3:2 pattern and goes unknown before recovering when the shot changes. There are usually a lot of shallow angle horizontal lines present when this happens, like the siding on a house, or tiles on a background wall. Is it possible to restrict what madVR's IVTC algorithm looks for, or to force only a certain pattern, like 3:2, to reduce the chances of it getting lost?

FWIW, I've never seen it have a problem with HD 1080i60 3:2 content.
That's usually when fades or other transitions were mastered at 30 fps instead of 24.
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Old 17th December 2015, 04:48   #34693  |  Link
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That's usually when fades or other transitions were mastered at 30 fps instead of 24.
Except the scenes are not fades. They just cause misdetections. I will cut one of them from the DVD and upload a sample.

Edit: Here's a sample. Enable deinterlacing and watch.

Last edited by Stereodude; 17th December 2015 at 05:13.
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Old 17th December 2015, 06:52   #34694  |  Link
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Can someone tell if there is any difference at all between choosing "disable calibration controls for this display" and "this display is already calibrated?" I have one display that had calibration controls disabled. Setting it to "this display is already calibrated" seemed to change the picture slightly, even though I expected no change. I thought the gamma might be different. No other checkboxes are checked.

Are the same gamma ramps used in both cases? The difference could be in my head.
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Old 17th December 2015, 07:40   #34695  |  Link
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Can someone tell if there is any difference at all between choosing "disable calibration controls for this display" and "this display is already calibrated?"
I believe madVR does some extra gamma processing in the latter case, on the theory that if your display isn't calibrated, it's probably not worth bothering. I asked madshi once, but it's been a while so I may be misremembering.
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Old 17th December 2015, 08:14   #34696  |  Link
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Except the scenes are not fades. They just cause misdetections. I will cut one of them from the DVD and upload a sample.

Edit: Here's a sample. Enable deinterlacing and watch.
Yeah, it happens with a lot of my DVD mpeg-2 content as well. I've turned off IVTC to address the issue. It doesn't look as good, but I don't run into any problems. I doubt it will ever be fixed.

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I believe madVR does some extra gamma processing in the latter case, on the theory that if your display isn't calibrated, it's probably not worth bothering. I asked madshi once, but it's been a while so I may be misremembering.
I've enabled it on my end and it does make a difference. My monitor is SRGB, but I've set it to 709 in the list and DVD content which uses a different colorspace is different with it on/off. Not really sure if it's supposed to be on or not. It does take some of the redness out of the image though for SD content.

Last edited by AngelGraves13; 17th December 2015 at 08:17.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:39   #34697  |  Link
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Except the scenes are not fades. They just cause misdetections. I will cut one of them from the DVD and upload a sample.

Edit: Here's a sample. Enable deinterlacing and watch.
first of all this sample isn't flagged interlaced for madVR.

the disc has a "Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown" flag the disc is most likely soft telecine and there is simply nothing to do with the stream.
and the next strange thing is the VFR flag and the missing matrix and stuff like this.

so by default madVR isn't asked to deinterlace and if it doesn't use any deinterlacing everything is fine.
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Old 17th December 2015, 13:13   #34698  |  Link
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first of all this sample isn't flagged interlaced for madVR.
And your point? Not all DVDs are flagged correctly, or will indicate to the decoder and madVR what they really are.

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so by default madVR isn't asked to deinterlace and if it doesn't use any deinterlacing everything is fine.
No, it isn't. You can't get proper 24p playback of the original DVD without forcing deinterlacing = on and film mode because madVR gets told it's got a framerate of 29.97. Sure, if you process the video stream to remove the soft pulldown flag and were to remux it into a mkv or something where the stream is marked as progressive then it will playback fine, but I'm talking about playing back the DVD as is.
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Old 17th December 2015, 13:19   #34699  |  Link
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Yeah, it happens with a lot of my DVD mpeg-2 content as well. I've turned off IVTC to address the issue. It doesn't look as good, but I don't run into any problems. I doubt it will ever be fixed.
Admittedly I don't watch a lot of DVDs. It's nearly all Blu-ray and OTA ATSC HDTV. However, recently I started watching Castle, which isn't on Blu-ray, so I've now got a fair number of DVDs under my belt. I think I've seen 3 times so far up through S05E20 or so where the IVTC algorithm got confused. I'm not about to disable it.
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Old 17th December 2015, 13:51   #34700  |  Link
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And your point? Not all DVDs are flagged correctly, or will indicate to the decoder and madVR what they really are.

No, it isn't. You can't get proper 24p playback of the original DVD without forcing deinterlacing = on and film mode because madVR gets told it's got a framerate of 29.97. Sure, if you process the video stream to remove the soft pulldown flag and were to remux it into a mkv or something where the stream is marked as progressive then it will playback fine, but I'm talking about playing back the DVD as is.
feel free to step through each frame IVTC isn't needed for this file.
not sure if madVR is ignoring repeate flags or things like this but the IVTC algo still sees the 3:2 pattern that's not present when deinterlaced or played progressive.
the output is already 23p the "only" issue is that madVR isn't switching to 23p and stays at 60 hz because source filter says it is 29p.

don't get me wrong madVR IVTC shouldn't fail in this case but this file is not a typical DVD. i guess the muxer did something to it but this is just a guess.

there are still bugs with this sample SM is not working properly it is triggered at 23 hz.
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