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Old 10th December 2017, 12:11   #47641  |  Link
SirSwede
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Remove Compression Artifacts
Thanks! I must be blind, can't find that option at all (I'm on 0.92.4).
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:15   #47642  |  Link
ryrynz
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Not blind, it was added in 0.92.5..
Just update your madVR already. Also a new version will probably be out in the next few days.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:21   #47643  |  Link
SirSwede
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Not blind, it was added in 0.92.5..
Just update your madVR already. Also a new version will probably be out in the next few days.
Ok. Thanks.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:49   #47644  |  Link
HillieSan
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Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
Try lowering the the "how many video frames shall be presented in advance: to 4 or less than default of 8. It worked for me on my AMD card.
I tried this yesterday and it did not solve the problem. Actually, the problem is that FSE sometimes locks my RX 480. My both screens go black and they are (often) frozen. Then I need to reset my PC.

Last edited by HillieSan; 10th December 2017 at 13:04.
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Old 10th December 2017, 13:10   #47645  |  Link
Manni
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HLG support?

@Madshi

I posted about this by mistake here https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php...&postcount=403

As Nev has confirmed HLG wasn't supported yet, any chance we could add support for it, even if only in passthrough?

At the moment it's mostly demo files, but real content is coming, at least in streaming/broadcast in the UK/EU/Japan, for example this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42225220.

As it's much easier to implement than Dolby Vision, it would be nice to have such support in MadVR/MadTPG, not necessarily for playback but for testing/calibration, especially of non HLG compatible displays such as the pre-2018 JVCs (already have implemented an experimental HLG gamma curve on my rs500, it seems to be working great).
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Last edited by Manni; 10th December 2017 at 13:13.
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Old 10th December 2017, 13:36   #47646  |  Link
mclingo
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Originally Posted by HillieSan View Post
I tried this yesterday and it did not solve the problem. Actually, the problem is that FSE sometimes locks my RX 480. My both screens go black and they are (often) frozen. Then I need to reset my PC.
same happens here, however, i think this is a driver issue as if i go back to 17.10.2 several things happen.

1. lockups change to hdmi loss instead which can be retrived with a devcon reset so no need to power cycle PC.

2. using 1080p24 / 2160p24 instead of 23p works again, I get no frame drops or repeats in hours.

3. HDR plays ok but is choppy, no frame drops, I think this driver version breaks HEVC decoding.

So we either use latest version of everything and get random lockups, I get them sometimes when FSE is disabled when coming out of HDR stuff so DIRECT3d is also problematic, I think its the 23p thing, could me my LG OLED doesnt properly support that.

or we have a reasonable stable system on older drivers and no HDR playback.

I'm yet to try any later ATI versions, i'm getting a bit tired of all this now.

I may even put my Gefore 1050 back in.
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Old 10th December 2017, 13:59   #47647  |  Link
mclingo
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might of stumbled on a sweet spot for 4K RX users using KODI DS (havent tried MPC yet)

- AMD driver 17.11.2 (fixes HEVC HDR playback - seems to be on the only stable drive, latest locks up using FSE
- Use 1080p for KODI DS GUI, if you use 4k when you stop a movie, usually a 3D one you get HDMI loss which can only be retrieved with a DEVCON restart.
- use FSE in MADVR to get 3D MVC (doesnt work without)
- use DIRECT3D in MADVR - HDR passthrough doesnt work without.
- use full screen window in KODI DS, seem more stable.
- user 24p display modes not 23p, this also causes lockups and HDMI loss for me but it could be an issue with my LG OL

i'll need a few days to see how stable this is, KODI doesnt tend to switch back to 4k desktop on closing but i've had this problem for ages so its unrelated.
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Old 10th December 2017, 14:00   #47648  |  Link
HillieSan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
same happens here, however, i think this is a driver issue as if i go back to 17.10.2 several things happen.
I think it only happens with NGU. I will check this probably this evening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
2. using 1080p24 / 2160p24 instead of 23p works again, I get no frame drops or repeats in hours.
Good to hear :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
3. HDR plays ok but is choppy, no frame drops, I think this driver version breaks HEVC decoding.
I had this problem too. I can't remember exactly what i did to solve it. I do remember that it was a weird problem, because I thought that all settings were correct. One more thing I had to do was to add "2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p25, 2160p59, 2160p60" to display modes->list all display modes madVR may switch to->. Otherwise madVR picked the wrong frequency and it selected to wrong resolution (1080 instead of 2160).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
So we either use latest version of everything and get random lockups, I get them sometimes when FSE is disabled when coming out of HDR stuff so DIRECT3d is also problematic, I think its the 23p thing, could me my LG OLED doesnt properly support that.
Except for the lockups with FSE, all is working fine with the RX 480. HDR and 4K works good. I use the latest Windows version and the latest drivers.

EDIT: use D3D11 and not D3D9 in LAV and madVR

Last edited by HillieSan; 10th December 2017 at 15:51.
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Old 10th December 2017, 16:08   #47649  |  Link
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bitdepth, dithering and scaling

Although the following quotes are from years ago, since they are still up do date and worth to be discussed, I want to bring up the following again, especially based on what Madshi posted at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@Mark, all the resampling filters are a compromise between aliasing, sharpness and ringing. There is no filter which is best in every category.
Considering that video signals are essentially the same as audio signals, I wonder why in practice it seems to be such a challenge to get it right in the video domain. I might be corrected but I think when it comes to audio, taking any voodoo/audiophile arguments aside, filters which leave the usable bandwidth quite intact while suppressing any other range which could cause aliasing are rather easily achievable using cheap and decent technics nowadays.

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Do you want higher frequency response and live with ugly jaggies? Or do you want smooth jaggies and can live with a lower frequency response?
So what is the reason that already when it comes to low-pass-filtering of images it seems to be such a trade-off between sharpness and aliasing to be made still in 2017?

For anyone considering my comparison between video and audio far-fetched and "unorthodox": both are the same phenomenon at least in their waveform appearance - amplitude change over time. So any video signal, be it 4K in BT2020 or whatever nowadays fancy color space could be represented by a pure analog waveform to be digitized. Hence I wonder why a downscale is still such a challenge. Couldn't one apply the same already proven tools theoretical in the analog domain of the signal to archieve better results then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
However, dithering down to 8bit should produce very good results. I don't think anyone could see a difference between dithered 8bit and 10bit.
I'd be interesting in your opinion on the following:

Wouldn't it be possible to reproduce any color space and any gamut and any brightness and gradient with any bitdepth, be it one bit only given ideal dither implementation? The only drawback of lower bitdepth should be a higher noise floor, effectively preventing darker tones to be resolved as they would be masked by the dither and quantization noise of course. Hence I'm not saying that the bitdepth is irrelevant but I'd claim that any color or tonal variation should be able to effectively displayed with whatever bitdepth down to the noise floor at least.

Audio domain teaches that when applying either, there are no stair steps or discrete loudness levels depending on the bitdepth but only the noise floor which is getting higher of about 6dB per bit. That the smoothness of an audio signal depends on the sampling rate or bitdepth is a very common misconception so I wonder why it is still so common with pictures and video. Everywhere, one can read "the higher the bitdepth, the higher the available steps", etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, please. madVR will most probably never do any kind of intermediate frame interpolation. So this discussion doesn't really belong here.
Well, at least from an admittedly quite theoretical point of view, the signal theory would dictate you to do so because the individual frames of a movie are snapshots or samples according to Nyquist/Shannon which - just as pixels - were never supposed to be shown separately but reconstructed as a continuous movement.

Most people would say that the higher a frame rate, the smoother the movie and movement of a movie will become. Theoretically, that's not true: the only thing which changes is the nyquist frequency. In that case: what speed of movement can be reconstructed without aliasing. Anything else, including the frame-by-frame display of a movie - strictly speaking - is wrong to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Basically it's the same as with dithering vs debanding: Dithering tries to make sure that madVR processing does not add new banding artifacts.
I recognized that when making a screenshot of a movie when using madVR and dithering to 1-bit only, while error diffusion dithering results in images containing only up to 8 colors just as to be expected, with random dithering, several thousand colors are counted and I wonder why. Apparently, some fusion between neighbour pixels takes place, raising the amount of colors, but why?
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Old 10th December 2017, 17:57   #47650  |  Link
mclingo
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what magic are people using to get decent timings out of their nvidia cards, got a 1050 and no matter what I do cant better 23.971. I tried adding a custom res, when I set it as 23hz and 23.976 it saves it as a 24hz res and changes the time to 24,000, cant get the settings to hold at all, what am i doing wrong?

I set it up, click test, it all looks ok but when its saved it all wrong.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:23   #47651  |  Link
khanmein
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madVR 0.92.10 is out.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:34   #47652  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khanmein View Post
madVR 0.92.10 is out.
Yep, been putting it through it's paces.

https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR

The Doom9 site has been down, so I would expect Madshi to post here later.

K

Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 11th December 2017 at 09:38.
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Old 11th December 2017, 10:19   #47653  |  Link
waldnebel
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Is chroma upscaling working on image files? I'm using madVR also as a renderer for pictures and it would be more than great if madVR is able to get the most out of the jpeg rendering area too.
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Old 11th December 2017, 10:24   #47654  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by waldnebel View Post
Is chroma upscaling working on image files? I'm using madVR also as a renderer for pictures and it would be more than great if madVR is able to get the most out of the jpeg rendering area too.
Any image that originally had subsampled chroma needs their chroma to be upscaled before it can be displayed on a screen, so if you run those through madVR, it would happen (although not all JPEG images have subsampled chroma)
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Old 11th December 2017, 10:35   #47655  |  Link
madshi
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madVR v0.92.10 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* algo "remove compression artifacts" can now be run as part of NGU
* reverted NGU Sharp back to gamma light -> slightly better anti-aliasing
* removed NNEDI3 (based on user feedback)
* ever so slightly improved HDR behaviour
* default value for HDR -> SDR conversion is now set to "200 nits"
* default value for "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode" is now "off"
* default value for "use d3d11 for presentation" is now "on"
* fixed: using multiple madVR instances at the same time could sometimes fail
Once again, not much time for madVR atm, so this is just a set of little changes that have piled up since the last madVR build. I'll reply to all open comments next weekend, hopefully, and maybe by then I'll also have more time for madVR, so that I can e.g. actually look into bug reports etc, but I'm not sure yet.

FYI, the new "remove compression artifacts can now be run as part of NGU" feature comes with a new option called "run as part of NGU, if possible", which allows you to turn this feature on/off. Ideally, I'd like to remove this new option and *always* run RCA as part of NGU, where possible. But I wanted to give you the chance to test both approaches to see if running both separately might be better for images quality or not. So please do test that and report back.

A few details about how RCA/NGU fusion works:
1) Both RCA and NGU can run on just the luma channel or just the chroma channels or both. madVR automatically runs a combined algo if your settings allow it. It's possible that only luma "RCA + NGU" will be fused, or only chroma, or both, depending on your settings.
2) Currently fused RCA+NGU is only supported for NGU Sharp, but not for NGU AA, NGU Standard or NGU Soft.
3) If you have a 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 source and you activate "NGU Sharp" for chroma upscaling, and if you also activate RCA + "process chroma channels, too", then the chroma RCA will run as part of the chroma NGU Sharp upscaling. But if you select any other chroma upscaler, there's no chance for a fused NGU Sharp + RCA, so in that case RCA will still be performed separately for the chroma channels, followed by the chroma upscaler you've selected.
4) If you activate "NGU Sharp" for Image Upscaling/Doubling, then RCA for luma will run as part of NGU Sharp. But if you select a different Image Upscaling algo, or if image upscaling isn't performed at all, then RCA will be run separately.
5) If you select RCA "medium" quality, NGU Sharp quality is automatically upgraded to at least "high" quality. If you select RCA "high" quality, NGU Sharp is automatically upgraded to "very high" quality. It should still be faster overall than separate RCA + NGU Sharp Low/Medium processing.

The "default" changes listed in the changelog aim at providing a better HDR experience out of the box, especially with Windows 10.
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Old 11th December 2017, 11:03   #47656  |  Link
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Was hoping to see the 04-11 change to AS make it in to this version, will it be in the next one?
As you said, RCA medium is basically free, thanks! Will have to check out it's impact on good quality 720 sources.
I guess the option to unselect this will be removed in a later version? Unless I guess if the upgrade to NGU high from medium plus RCA costs more performance.

Last edited by ryrynz; 12th December 2017 at 23:33.
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Old 11th December 2017, 11:32   #47657  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.92.10 released
[code]
* reverted NGU Sharp back to gamma light -> slightly better anti-aliasing
Fusing - can't tell the difference, I always run NGU Sharp so on 702x404 source it looks exactly the same to me.
But I think linear light looks better for NGU Sharp, I wouldn't run Sharp if I cared about AA.
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Old 11th December 2017, 11:53   #47658  |  Link
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Hi, MADSHI, thanks again for you time on this project, any chance you can answer the AMD card 3D question, if stopping using FSE is a solution to some problems is there another way you can implement 3D for AMD cards. I know you have a script which turns 3D on and off for NVIDIA cards but the AMD package has not such on / off toggle baked in unless its deep in the registry.

What i'm also finding is that FSE is a lot more stable if MADVR doesnt have to switch between 1080p and 2160p in that if i drop my PC desktop into 1080p mode from 2160p before I start a 3D movie it starts and stops fine, if I leave it in 2160p it often totally hangs my PC on stop, wonder if there is a workaround you could implement for this?
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Old 11th December 2017, 13:02   #47659  |  Link
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Small feature request: it would be nice to have keyboard shortcuts for the strength of the two new image processing algorithms. I find myself adjusting the strength pretty often to suit whatever movie I'm playing, especially with SD sources.
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Old 11th December 2017, 13:15   #47660  |  Link
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Small feature request: it would be nice to have keyboard shortcuts for the strength of the two new image processing algorithms. I find myself adjusting the strength pretty often to suit whatever movie I'm playing, especially with SD sources.
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