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Old 16th February 2014, 23:08   #23321  |  Link
madshi
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Ok, here's one last build, after this I'll probably not have time to do madVR development for 2-3 days. So there will probably be no more test builds in the next 2-3 days at least.

http://madshi.net/madVRadaptive4.rar

This build is a slight modification of the A1 build, in the same way that A3 was a slight modification of the A2 build. So basically A1 -> A4. And A2 -> A3. For the scientific crowd: The modification is that I'm applying a minimum random factor of 0.625f (identical to NL6). The max random factor is 1.0f, and depends on the exact gray level. The difference between A1/4 vs. A2/3 is that the exact random factor is calculated differently.

I think that A3/4 should hopefully combine the positive aspects of NL6 with the adaptive approach. At least I hope so. Whether A3 or A4 is better might be a matter of taste. I think A3 has a slightly more random look. Which could be positive or negative, depending on taste.

Last edited by madshi; 16th February 2014 at 23:14.
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Old 16th February 2014, 23:08   #23322  |  Link
Qaq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
Where can I download old versions of madVR (<0.86.1)?
1st post in the thread says its here: http://www.videohelp.com/tools/madVR/old-versions#download
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Old 16th February 2014, 23:13   #23323  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by NicolasRobidoux View Post
Note that except for the conversion to linear RGB (which I'm not sure is the best choice with video content when upsampling, but may be with pixel art) what I showed is a purely linear scheme: There is no AR applied whatsoever.

AR is your department. (Until I program my own; don't hold your breath )

In any case, I tracked down the general purpose scheme I like with pixel art. This one: http://www.wizards-toolkit.org/disco...tart=30#p78393

Result of running
Code:
convert SNES.png -define filter:lobes=4 -define filter:blur=0.88451002338585141 -filter Lanczos -distort Resize 1234x lanczosSharpest4.sRGB.png
http://web.cs.laurentian.ca/nrobidou...throughRGB.png

Whether, with AR, it satisfies you or others, let alone beats NNEDI, is another story. Also, maybe it should only be applied to luma. But note how noticeably less jaggy it is on perfect diagonals, how tight the halo is, and how sharp it is, compared to the 3-lobe version I showed earlier. Also note that the corresponding disc is barely larger than EWA LanczosSharp, because the deblur is so strong. So it should run reasonably fast.
Ok, with AR it might not look too bad. Not sure whether I would prefer it over Jinc3. Maybe yes for pixel art, but IMHO the NNEDI3 result is still in a whole other league.

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Where can I download old versions of madVR (<0.86.1)?
See first post of this thread.
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Old 16th February 2014, 23:16   #23324  |  Link
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Adaptive 3 looks really good. Seems to maintain rich deep colors with good blacks and shadow detail. Clarity/realism is amazing.
Needi3 64 with doubling set to 32/16 always with lancos4 and jinc3. No
problem running 720p/1080p movies. All quality settings unticked. Thanks everyone looks better everyday.


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Old 16th February 2014, 23:22   #23325  |  Link
NicolasRobidoux
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Mathias: I am pretty sure I have shown these schemes to you before. The "new" thing (hopefully) is pointing out they are reasonably antialiased for pixel art type objects given how sharp they are. I am not suggesting that they be used for upsampling "standard" video content: Jinc3 AR is about as good as this family of schemes gets.
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Old 16th February 2014, 23:24   #23326  |  Link
MistahBonzai
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I would like to verify a MadVR setting for viewing the various MadVR*.ax variants. It's been mentioned that dithering should be disabled in MadVR however I see no such setting. Under "Trade quality for performance" I can either select use random dithering.. or not. In that case OpenCL error diffusion has been selected. If so then "Use random dithering instead of OpenCL error diffusion" should not be selected. Correct?
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Old 16th February 2014, 23:28   #23327  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ok, here's one last build, after this I'll probably not have time to do madVR development for 2-3 days. So there will probably be no more test builds in the next 2-3 days at least.

http://madshi.net/madVRadaptive4.rar

This build is a slight modification of the A1 build, in the same way that A3 was a slight modification of the A2 build. So basically A1 -> A4.
Actually it's more like A4 > A1 to my eyes

A1 felt a bit like unfinished business, I mean there was less noise but it still felt a bit out of control. With A4, the sensation of depth is back with a vengeance, there's even less noise visible and the picture is much clearer. You are setting new benchmarks everytime, GG

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there will probably be no more test builds in the next 2-3 days at least.
so how am I gonna live without my daily drastic PQ improvement then?

Last edited by leeperry; 16th February 2014 at 23:38.
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Old 17th February 2014, 00:45   #23328  |  Link
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new madvr(all test bulid) work in the old card ? 3650 dont work new madvr..
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Old 17th February 2014, 03:43   #23329  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Actually it's more like A4 > A1 to my eyes

A1 felt a bit like unfinished business, I mean there was less noise but it still felt a bit out of control. With A4, the sensation of depth is back with a vengeance, there's even less noise visible and the picture is much clearer. You are setting new benchmarks everytime, GG


so how am I gonna live without my daily drastic PQ improvement then?
I think he was trying to say that A1 evolved into A4 by typing A1 > A4, where > is a symbol for progression, rather than a symbol for "more/greater". I don't think he was trying to say that A1 is better than A4... but I was wrong so many times before that its likely I am wrong again...
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Old 17th February 2014, 05:16   #23330  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MistahBonzai View Post
I would like to verify a MadVR setting for viewing the various MadVR*.ax variants. It's been mentioned that dithering should be disabled in MadVR however I see no such setting. Under "Trade quality for performance" I can either select use random dithering.. or not. In that case OpenCL error diffusion has been selected. If so then "Use random dithering instead of OpenCL error diffusion" should not be selected. Correct?
IMO dithering should never be disabled in madVR, especially if you can use the great OpenCL (really DirectCompute now) error diffusion dithering. There is an option in the "Trade quality for performance" page under the "Do not use" section to disable all dithering.

If you disable OpenCL dithering in the various MadVR*.ax variants than there is no point to using the variants. We are testing different dithering techniques.

To test the various new dithering methods UNcheck all dither related "Trade quality for performance" options.

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new madvr(all test bulid) work in the old card ? 3650 dont work new madvr..
The new stuff doesn't work on that old of a card, both raw GPU speed and DirectX 11 (DirectCompute 5.0) required:
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
FWIW, I'm playing with DirectCompute now, and it looks promising. But I will limit support to D3D11 capable GPUs, only, so Nvidia 2xx and AMD 4xxx GPUs will not be supported (only for DirectCompute features, of course).
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
NVidia 4xx should work. NVidia 2xx does not and AMD 4xxx does not. The reason for that is that although DirectCompute in theory supports DX10 GPUs, too, it does so only with a very limited feature set. I'd have to use totally different code to make it all work on DX10 GPUs, and honestly, I think NVidia 2xx and AMD 4xxx users probably don't have the raw speed to make use of the new features, anyway, so I don't feel like spending a lot of additional development resources just to support DX10 GPUs. So I've limited support to native DX11 GPUs.

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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
I think he was trying to say that A1 evolved into A4 by typing A1 > A4, where > is a symbol for progression, rather than a symbol for "more/greater". I don't think he was trying to say that A1 is better than A4... but I was wrong so many times before that its likely I am wrong again...
I think you got it right.

I will have to back leeperry for my vote when deciding on which adaptive build to go for.

Last edited by Asmodian; 17th February 2014 at 05:22.
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Old 17th February 2014, 05:34   #23331  |  Link
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Sorry if this question has been asked before. If you're using LAV decoder are you using Ordered Dithering or Random Dithering? I.e. is random dithering redundant and just raising the noise floor or is it dithering something else?
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Old 17th February 2014, 06:08   #23332  |  Link
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Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
Sorry if this question has been asked before. If you're using LAV decoder are you using Ordered Dithering or Random Dithering? I.e. is random dithering redundant and just raising the noise floor or is it dithering something else?
this option is not used with madvr you can ignore it.

madr supports ll colorspaces lv can output and this option is only used when a yCbCr colorspace is change to rgb and this is not going to happen. except you are playing around with settings just leave it as it is and it fine and not used.
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Old 17th February 2014, 07:17   #23333  |  Link
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A4 looks good in terms of randomness but its also the brightest and has the most abrupt transition to black.

A1 looks good but it lacks dithering in the darkest shades, good gamma curve.
A2 It has the smoothest transition between shades and looks like A1 in terms of gamma.
A3 is a tad brighter than A2.
A4 is even brighter than A3, but it also fixes A1 "holes" lack of dithering.

For me its still A2.

P.S
The Adaptive builds are a HUGE improvement over the NL builds (from what I see).
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Old 17th February 2014, 07:56   #23334  |  Link
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For me its still A2.
Sounds reasonable. Screenshots would be great.
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Old 17th February 2014, 08:08   #23335  |  Link
James Freeman
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Comparison of all the NL1-8 and AD1-4, Grey & Color: ED Builds Test.zip

* Ver Greeneyes's 16-bit videos are used (Color & Grey).
* Organized in folders according to frame.
* "NL Tests" are frame 88 of Color.

IMO, You should look for smoothness in transition and no abrupt changes or big brightness (gamma) changes.
Also, the dithering pattern should look even and without "holes"** in the dithering pattern.
**(I'm not talking about the undithered places which should be undithered).

Now more than 3 people can decide the future of MadVR.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 09:59.
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Old 17th February 2014, 08:20   #23336  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
This build is a slight modification of the A1 build, in the same way that A3 was a slight modification of the A2 build. So basically A1 -> A4. And A2 -> A3.
At this point, I'll only say that the A4 is a major improvement over the A1 build on linear gradients. I won't know my preference among all the adaptive builds, until I expand my tests to examine the dithering behavior on real-world videos.
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Old 17th February 2014, 09:13   #23337  |  Link
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IMO dithering should never be disabled in madVR, especially if you can use the great OpenCL (really DirectCompute now) error diffusion dithering.
I think we are in 100% agreement when I stated "If so then "Use random dithering instead of OpenCL error diffusion" should not be selected." BTW: I had overlooked the "Don't use dithering" option at the bottom of the "Trade quality for performance" section - not that it was selected.

Bottom Line is that I have spent the whole day attempting to find a combination which yields screen shots demonstrating the effects of the various MadVR*.ax files and have not succeeded. In the past simply deselecting random dithering, capturing the screen with MadVR or Printscreen has worked.

Now for an unknown reason(s) no combination of NV12, YV12, adaptive4, linearlight, MadVR image capture or printscreen (with and without FSE) shows any indication that dithering (error diffusion) is changing. Based on past experience with the MP4-2c gray scale-ramps and test files provided here they have never looked better - while utilizing whatever method they are using (or not)

Shared folder @Mediafire

I'm stumped and this doesn't happen all that often when it comes to 'pixel peeping'. I'm open to all specific suggestions relating to MadVR/LAV settings (I disabled ffdshow and associated AVIsynth scripts right up front).
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Old 17th February 2014, 09:38   #23338  |  Link
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MistahBonzai,

Everything is fine, ED is changing.
The difference is so refined between the latest builds, that its almost invisible with the naked eye (without software intervention).

Its not the big difference we had between, DC3, Noisy & NL builds.
We are at the top of the pyramid (so to speak) now.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 09:40.
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Old 17th February 2014, 11:07   #23339  |  Link
leeperry
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A4 looks good in terms of randomness but its also the brightest and has the most abrupt transition to black.
It might very well be a good thing because when transitions to black aren't "abrupt" this might very well kill contrast and clarity on edges, just a thought as I care a lot more about subjective impressions than overblown screenshots.

All I'm saying is that subjective contrast is amazing with A4(Oblivion looks so darn good, yay!) so this might very well match your findings, 0.2 cents territory here so don't throw rocks at me just yet

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The difference is so refined between the latest builds that it's almost invisible with the naked eye (without software intervention).
FWIW I can DBT them anytime you want.

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I think you got it right.
It was meant as a joke but sarcasm notoriously doesn't work too well over the internet

Last edited by leeperry; 17th February 2014 at 11:15.
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Old 17th February 2014, 11:24   #23340  |  Link
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It might very well be a good thing because when transitions to black aren't "abrupt" this might very well kill contrast and clarity on edges,
just a thought as I care a lot more about subjective impressions than overblown screenshots.

All I'm saying is that subjective contrast is amazing with A4 so this might very well match your findings, 0.2 cents territory here so don't throw rocks at me just yet
Me too, but I can't really see the difference without software intervention, so I had to base my conclusions on the overblown images (like everyone else).

Subjective contrast can mean Enhanced Contrast and that's not a good thing for video purists or what MadVR is trying to achieve.
I think we should go for accuracy instead of subjective perception.

What do you think?

Quote:
FWIW I can DBT them anytime you want.
Hmm....without enhancements?
You seem to be the only one...

On my hardware calibrated (i1 Display Pro) monitor, I can't see the difference with my naked eyes.
On what hardware do you compare the builds?
Are you sure your TV/Monitor doesn't do some funky enhancements or something?
Maybe you have the Brightness (TV) set too high so you can clearly see what supposed to be very dark (where the dithering is most prominent)?
Wait, don't tell me you're sitting a foot from a 100" TV?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 11:38.
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