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Old 7th December 2019, 16:19   #7221  |  Link
_kermit
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As mentioned above, I'd also look at Aq mode 3 with the default AQ strength. You may even be able to get better results (at the same file size) with around 0.85, even lower if the source is very grainy.

Additionally, I have yet to see any real detail benefit to no-strong-intra-smoothing. I'd also avoid disabling deblocking and, if grain retention is still a priority, use some light deblocking instead. I've had good results with -4: -1 and -3: -3, with the former being slightly better IMO.

--selective-sao 1 also seems to work well from my testing, subjectively better than disabling it entirely IMO.
thanks both.

I've gathered those parameters from many sources, and honestly have mostly no clue about the impact.

Something like this?

--preset slow --vbv-maxrate 20000 --deblock=-4:-1 --amp --aq-strength 0.85 --qcomp 0.7 --selective-sao 1 --rskip --output-depth 10 --Aq-mode 3

I don't care about grain. Grain is IMO just noise.
And while I understand that old material just has to have grain I don't understand why there is grain in newer material.

If grain can be reduced without having other negative effects on a movie, that would also be fine.
I don't analyze still pics, I don't see a point there. I'm not watching still pics.

would the above be a good compromise, sufficient, or is there more to fine tune?

-roland
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Old 7th December 2019, 17:19   #7222  |  Link
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thanks both.

I've gathered those parameters from many sources, and honestly have mostly no clue about the impact.

Something like this?

--preset slow --vbv-maxrate 20000 --deblock=-4:-1 --amp --aq-strength 0.85 --qcomp 0.7 --selective-sao 1 --rskip --output-depth 10 --Aq-mode 3

I don't care about grain. Grain is IMO just noise.
And while I understand that old material just has to have grain I don't understand why there is grain in newer material.

If grain can be reduced without having other negative effects on a movie, that would also be fine.
I don't analyze still pics, I don't see a point there. I'm not watching still pics.

would the above be a good compromise, sufficient, or is there more to fine tune?

-roland
It's very difficult to compare without 2-pass, but I'd also ditch qcomp 0.7 . Between that and the Aq strength changes, bitrate at CRF 22 is going to drop quite a lot, so I'd maybe look at using a lower CRF. Maybe start around CRF 20.5 and see how you get on?

Perhaps keep AQ strength at the default of 1.0 for the time being. You really need 2-pass and short scene tests to find the optimal value.

Last edited by markiemarcus; 7th December 2019 at 17:30.
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Old 7th December 2019, 17:20   #7223  |  Link
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Losing grain means also losing details, but --selective-sao 1 probably helps with that. SAO used to be one option to disable (I still disable it completely myself), because it just smoothed everything. Otherwise, your settings should be a good basis. I don't know much about the inner workings of the deblocking feature, but I use --deblock -2:-2 myself.
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Old 7th December 2019, 17:40   #7224  |  Link
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Losing grain means also losing details, but --selective-sao 1 probably helps with that. SAO used to be one option to disable (I still disable it completely myself), because it just smoothed everything. Otherwise, your settings should be a good basis. I don't know much about the inner workings of the deblocking feature, but I use --deblock -2:-2 myself.
Deblock -2:-2 usually looks nice from my testing also. I'd definitely give --selective-sao 1 a try. Helps with a few rough edges. You can really see the grain smearing start to kick in with --selective-sao 2 though.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:54   #7225  |  Link
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Deblock -2:-2 usually looks nice from my testing also. I'd definitely give --selective-sao 1 a try. Helps with a few rough edges. You can really see the grain smearing start to kick in with --selective-sao 2 though.
I've tried this on a 1 min. clip:

--vbv-maxrate 15000 --deblock=-2:-2 --amp --aq-strength 0.85 --selective-sao 1 --rskip --output-depth 10 --aq-mode 3

with CRF 18-22 in 1.0 steps.

CRF 18 results in 5.1Mbit/s (the original has 37Mbit), but all still have the same issue.

Anything else that can help?
Obviously otherwise only using very high bitrate might solve this or not re-encoing at all or accepting that this might happen.
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Old 8th December 2019, 06:37   #7226  |  Link
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I've tried this on a 1 min. clip:

--vbv-maxrate 15000 --deblock=-2:-2 --amp --aq-strength 0.85 --selective-sao 1 --rskip --output-depth 10 --aq-mode 3

with CRF 18-22 in 1.0 steps.

CRF 18 results in 5.1Mbit/s (the original has 37Mbit), but all still have the same issue.

Anything else that can help?
Obviously otherwise only using very high bitrate might solve this or not re-encoing at all or accepting that this might happen.
Perhaps stick with the default Aq strength for the time being. CRF 18 with Aq mode 3 really should look good.

I take it you're running the latest build?

In the interest of narrowing the problem down, maybe try the "slower" preset. I'd also see if --qg-size 64 can help and there's always good old Aq-mode 1.

Is the source very grainy?

Last edited by markiemarcus; 8th December 2019 at 06:48.
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Old 8th December 2019, 10:13   #7227  |  Link
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Have you checked the original closely so that it doesn't have the same issue there? Re-encoding could easily amplify it.
It could be worth a try applying an anti-banding filter just to see if it changes the situation.
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:01   #7228  |  Link
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Perhaps stick with the default Aq strength for the time being. CRF 18 with Aq mode 3 really should look good.

I take it you're running the latest build?

In the interest of narrowing the problem down, maybe try the "slower" preset. I'd also see if --qg-size 64 can help and there's always good old Aq-mode 1.

Is the source very grainy?
Tried now:

--vbv-maxrate 15000 --deblock=-2:-2 --amp --selective-sao 1 --rskip --output-depth 10 --aq-mode 3 --qg-size 64 --preset slower --crf 20

and

--vbv-maxrate 15000 --deblock=-2:-2 --amp --selective-sao 1 --rskip --output-depth 10 --aq-mode 1 --qg-size 64 --preset slower --crf 18

yes, 3.2.0.18

still shows. It may be less, but still obvious

Interesting part is that it only is that obvious on that region with black/purple texture

it is grainy, but there is worse.

does it help uploading the original and encoded clip?
Onedrive working?
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:01   #7229  |  Link
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Have you checked the original closely so that it doesn't have the same issue there? Re-encoding could easily amplify it.
It could be worth a try applying an anti-banding filter just to see if it changes the situation.
the original doesn't have that.

I have no idea how to apply such a filter
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Old 8th December 2019, 13:33   #7230  |  Link
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A source clip can always be useful. Easier to see what's really happening.
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Old 8th December 2019, 16:00   #7231  |  Link
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A source clip can always be useful. Easier to see what's really happening.
see if you can access that (uploading):

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuVhsELqus7qlI9E...GSG-g?e=GuXnag

cheers, roland
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Old 8th December 2019, 17:30   #7232  |  Link
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see if you can access that (uploading):

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuVhsELqus7qlI9E...GSG-g?e=GuXnag

cheers, roland
What frame is the one that shows the issue best? I'm not seeing anything specific in my encode at CRF 18, preset slower and slight tweaks.
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Old 8th December 2019, 19:44   #7233  |  Link
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What frame is the one that shows the issue best? I'm not seeing anything specific in my encode at CRF 18, preset slower and slight tweaks.
at 24 seconds, the woman in the middle.

But I've just changed the monitor I play the video on and the other isn't doing it, at least I can't see it.
When using another preset on the first display, I also don't see it anymore.
Can just the preset of a monitor cause that?
(I don't watch them on those, they are just for checking)
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Old 8th December 2019, 21:26   #7234  |  Link
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Yes, it's very much possible. Different calibrations or settings can change the image a lot, so you're always on the safe side if you can check it on the display where you will be watching the final video. Of course, for most of us it's not very convenient.
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Old 8th December 2019, 22:19   #7235  |  Link
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Yes, it's very much possible. Different calibrations or settings can change the image a lot, so you're always on the safe side if you can check it on the display where you will be watching the final video. Of course, for most of us it's not very convenient.
so, I guess all the fuss for nothing. Sorry for that.
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Old 9th December 2019, 00:05   #7236  |  Link
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at 24 seconds, the woman in the middle.

But I've just changed the monitor I play the video on and the other isn't doing it, at least I can't see it.
When using another preset on the first display, I also don't see it anymore.
Can just the preset of a monitor cause that?
(I don't watch them on those, they are just for checking)
It's quite a difficult scene, especially leading up to that point. It's prone to grain freezing in the exterior shots and the level is low enough that RDOQ makes it appear more coarse and boxy than it actually is. I've run into this on animated sources that make heavy use of dither. The establishing shot of the bar @ 9 seconds in the red/brown sky is great example. RDOQ level 2 makes a mess of it, even at the default value. If you increase either (Psy-rd or Psy-RDOQ), the situation gets even worse. I'm getting more pleasing and accurate results from RDOQ Level 0, maxing out Psy-rd, and using a lower CRF to arrive at the same file size. Is RDOQ really supposed to behave like this? Because it also blows up the filesize so I can't see how it can be efficiency related.

Default RDOQ and Psy settings:
https://i.ibb.co/vBbXhkh/Psy2-RDOQ1.png

RDOQ Level 0, Psy-rd 5:
https://i.ibb.co/cFK5JhV/RDOQLevel0-Psy5.png

Aq mode 1 is coming out ahead for me. Default AQ strength seems fine.

Grain motion in the exterior shots is definitely helped with --rd 6.

Last edited by markiemarcus; 9th December 2019 at 00:58.
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Old 9th December 2019, 00:14   #7237  |  Link
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so, I guess all the fuss for nothing. Sorry for that.
I read somewhere on here a while back that 10-bit playback on 8-bit displays can be a little unpredictable.
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Old 9th December 2019, 00:58   #7238  |  Link
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I read somewhere on here a while back that 10-bit playback on 8-bit displays can be a little unpredictable.
that does make sense
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Old 9th December 2019, 07:39   #7239  |  Link
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@_kermit

I can't see anything in your picture you posted (haven't checked the sample yet). Maybe it's a monitor calibration issue?
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Old 9th December 2019, 14:58   #7240  |  Link
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@_kermit

I can't see anything in your picture you posted (haven't checked the sample yet). Maybe it's a monitor calibration issue?
it seems what I saw was related to the display used.
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