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Old 19th May 2020, 22:17   #301  |  Link
Stereodude
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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
My latest private message from Joel...
There's a key part of his problem. He's probably getting questionable advice.

The rest of us discuss ideas on how to process these episodes in the open so others can offer improvement and alternate methods, not hide them in the dark.
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Old 19th May 2020, 23:13   #302  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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There's a key part of his problem. He's probably getting questionable advice.

The rest of us discuss ideas on how to process these episodes in the open so others can offer improvement and alternate methods, not hide them in the dark.
Our private messages are specifically about the retrograde field behavior issue, since you're all apparently unwilling to discuss it here.
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Old 19th May 2020, 23:59   #303  |  Link
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Our private messages are specifically about the retrograde field behavior issue, since you're all apparently unwilling to discuss it here.
I specifically asked for a sample of this

And for an "interlaced content" sample . (Not text, not fades)
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Old 20th May 2020, 04:05   #304  |  Link
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Wrong. Thank you for once again confirming everything I've said about your lack of reading skills.
You can keep accusing me of a lack of reading skills but it only makes you look more childish.
You implied.... no actually stated... that QTGMC's lossless mode doesn't field match. Of course it was a criticism.

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Of course, the so-called "lossless" mode is nowhere near lossless, since it still doesn't bother attempting to restore the original progressive frames where they exist or perform any kind of field-matching
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There is no consensus. Thank you for once again confirming everything I've said about your lack of reading skills.
You flogged the "poor reading skills" line to death a long time ago.
It doesn't take any reading skills to know that in almost every thread where you ask a question, someone complains about your attitude.

You've not mentioned any of the screenshots or samples I uploaded. Why not discuss them instead of just bickering? Or at least discuss the topic in addition to bickering. Where's your encodes showing how your method does it better? I supplied links for the source files that others supplied, and you provided links to your own source samples. Show us how they look using your method and explain why it's better instead of just pontificating.

Last edited by hello_hello; 20th May 2020 at 04:17.
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Old 20th May 2020, 04:14   #305  |  Link
manono
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Geez but I'm getting sick of this. I'll happily close this thread and any other where the male testosterone level gets too high. For the last time, keep it civil. Don't gimme any of the "But she started it" crap, either. Some of you people behave like children.
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Old 20th May 2020, 04:57   #306  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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I specifically asked for a sample of this

And for an "interlaced content" sample . (Not text, not fades)
Retrograde field behavior has nothing to do with text or fades.
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:07   #307  |  Link
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Retrograde field behavior has nothing to do with text or fades.
I never said it did.

"And an interlaced content" sample was requested. It's a separate topic. I suggested someone post both earlier. People might see "combing" on text or fades and identify it as "interlaced", but I'm not interested in text or fades - that has already been established. I'm asking if there is actual interlaced content other than text or fades - that affects how you might approach VFR
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:15   #308  |  Link
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OOh, gotcha. Well I already posted samples of retrograde field behavior a long time ago in the two other threads dedicated to that exact topic. I'm not sure what would be gained from posting them a third time, since the consensus hasn't changed: You have to either throw half the fields away or blend. Or manually correct the field order one field at a time with dozens of trim commands, if a sane field order even exists in the first place.

I'm pretty sure you already know what interlacing looks like, so I'm not sure why you'd need a sample of that either.

EDIT: if you mean that you specifically want samples of these things from DS9, then I'm the wrong person to ask, since I don't have DS9 at home.
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Last edited by Katie Boundary; 20th May 2020 at 05:21.
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:21   #309  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
OOh, gotcha. Well I already posted samples of retrograde field behavior a long time ago in the two other threads dedicated to that exact topic. I'm not sure what would be gained from posting them a third time, since the consensus hasn't changed: You have to either throw half the fields away or blend.
But does it exist here in DS9? Did you confirm it ?

People use various terms all the time, but sometimes some people describe things incorrectly.

Or some people used ffms2 in this thread . I've seen that cause field misorder - is that the cause ? Or something else in the script ? Or some other program ?

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I'm pretty sure you already know what interlacing looks like, so I'm not sure why you'd need a sample of that either.
Same as above . Did you verify? Any content other than text or fades ?

3:2 telecine can look like "interlacing" too in layman's terms on some frames . But it's not interlaced content.
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:25   #310  |  Link
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My Star Trek DVD collection is limited to the first ten movies and Voyager. It's up to Joel to provide DS9 clips. But if h_h wants to lose a bet with me about his/her incorrect and easily disprovable claims about the threads that I start, then I promise that DS9 will be the first thing I buy with his/her money.
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:33   #311  |  Link
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OOh, gotcha. Well I already posted samples of retrograde field behavior a long time ago in the two other threads dedicated to that exact topic. I'm not sure what would be gained from posting them a third time, since the consensus hasn't changed: You have to either throw half the fields away or blend. Or manually correct the field order one field at a time with dozens of trim commands, if a sane field order even exists in the first place.

I'm pretty sure you already know what interlacing looks like, so I'm not sure why you'd need a sample of that either.

EDIT: if you mean that you specifically want samples of these things from DS9, then I'm the wrong person to ask, since I don't have DS9 at home.
Have you forgotten this thread is specifically about DS9?
Why are you insisting on discussing what you call "retrograde field behaviour" in a DS9 thread when you don't even have samples to show it's a problem?
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:42   #312  |  Link
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This thread stopped being just about DS9 a looooong time ago.
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Old 20th May 2020, 10:26   #313  |  Link
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This thread stopped being just about DS9 a looooong time ago.
Yes it has. AND the second anyone posts anything BUT you will be stricken, hard, and the thread will be closed. Be careful now! All of you!
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Old 20th May 2020, 15:15   #314  |  Link
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I think I understand what PDR means when he says "actual interlaced content other than text or fades". You mean 60 hz content where the WHOLE image is changing every 1/60th of a second, not where parts of it change every 1/30th of a second and other parts change every 1/24th of a second, right? I agree, finding out how much of that content exists in DS9 has huge ramifications, for reasons explained in post #257

EDIT: I am such an idiot. There's no need to specify field parity for TFM at all. You can just let line C use whatever field AVIsynth says is first, and let line D use complementparity():

Code:
Y=nnedi3(field=-2)

A=yadifmod2(mode=1,edeint=Y).selecteven()
B=yadifmod2(mode=1,edeint=Y).selectodd()
C=Tfm(clip2=A)
D=complementparity().Tfm(clip2=B)
Interleave(C,D)
(unnecessary parameters removed for readability)

Then it'll work on both TFF and BFF content without needing manual adjustment.
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Last edited by Katie Boundary; 21st May 2020 at 02:47.
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Old 21st May 2020, 03:26   #315  |  Link
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Ok, so, a few things:

1). I messaged KB about what she calls "retrograde field behavior" because when I first attempted to run various TIVTC scripts against DS9, one of the problems all of these scripts introduced into various *specific* video sequences was frames moving backwards. This problem is actually what pushed me away from TIVTC and towards QTGMC in the first place. The reason I messaged her privately, ironically, is precisely because I was trying to avoid drama here. I followed KB's instructions for looking for this behavior. I did not see it.

I am not here to argue with anyone. I am not here to take sides or cause fights.

2). I am not going to keep anything in the dark. The entire stated purpose of my project is to create a tutorial.

3). H_H, I saw your response to me and I'll respond back to you tomorrow. Had a major work project for the last couple days.

I appreciate people being helpful with this project. I know I have been slow to test some of these workflow ideas -- I've been hit with other projects and I'm preparing to move -- but I intend to spend some time with it this weekend.
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:00   #316  |  Link
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One update to the above. I have done what some of you have recommended: Specifically, I analyzed the file with DGIndex, created a D2V file, and then used StaxRip to rip the VOB to an MKV. The resulting file is in 29.97 fps, not 23.976 fps -- but this injects 3:2 pulldown where none previously existed.

Do I really want to convert the episode into 29.97 fps?
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:52   #317  |  Link
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...and then used StaxRip to rip the VOB to an MKV
Bad idea. After decrypting the DVD to the hard drive, you make the D2V file for the episode and then use MPEG2Source on it. That's thoroughly explained in the docs accompanying the DGMPGDec package. Forget repackaging to an MKV. I don't know whose toes I stepped on with that statement.

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The resulting file is in 29.97 fps, not 23.976 fps -- but this injects 3:2 pulldown where none previously existed.
All NTSC DVDs output 29.97fps. If it's really progressive 23.976fps, you IVTC it back to 23.976fps. So, the latter part of your statement is incorrect. The only time you should get 23.976fps out of DGIndex is by setting Field Operation to Force Film and you do that only if it's 100% film. Some say 95% film is good enough, but not I. You can open the D2V and at the bottom it'll tell you the percentage of film.
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Old 21st May 2020, 05:06   #318  |  Link
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Do I really want to convert the episode into 29.97 fps?
It already is i60 (when the soft pulldown flag is honored). You don't want an input file that changes framerates. That's how you have audio sync issues. Because you have a mix of i60 encoded content and p24 content with a soft pulldown you need to apply the soft pulldown and work from there. The flags=5 argument in TFM will undo the soft pulldown perfectly without relying on visually matching fields.
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Old 21st May 2020, 07:16   #319  |  Link
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Originally Posted by JoelHruska View Post
1). I messaged KB about what she calls "retrograde field behavior" because when I first attempted to run various TIVTC scripts against DS9, one of the problems all of these scripts introduced into various *specific* video sequences was frames moving backwards. This problem is actually what pushed me away from TIVTC and towards QTGMC in the first place. The reason I messaged her privately, ironically, is precisely because I was trying to avoid drama here. I followed KB's instructions for looking for this behavior. I did not see it.
See, this is why I kept hounding everyone here about figuring out what was going on with the field order. If using "honor pulldown flags" in DGindex and then bob() in AVIsynth, and doing absolutely nothing else, shows absolutely no stuttering/RFB, but some other workflow does, then the other workflow has a huge screw-up somewhere. So we need to know: are you blindly duplicating frames to get your frame rate up to 48 fps before applying any kind of deinterlacing? What exactly are you doing that produced this effect?

BTW, the term "retrograde field behavior" isn't mine. I got it from John Meyer.

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Do I really want to convert the episode into 29.97 fps?
No, you want to convert it to 59.94
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Old 21st May 2020, 07:30   #320  |  Link
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Because you have a mix of i60 encoded content and p24 content with a soft pulldown you need to apply the soft pulldown and work from there.
Oh, there's soft pulldown in these? If there have been samples posted, I haven't looked at them and don't intend to go back through this thread to find them. Then, yes, avoid field-matching if possible by using the D2V argument to read the soft pulldown from the D2V file. It'll go something like this:

TFM(D2V="Video.d2v",Flags=5)

I've always used the default 4, but if you prefer 5 for these...
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