madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by madshi

In paused mode GUI/OSD responsiveness (low lag) is more important than not dropping frames, so the presentation queue is intentionally left almost empty.

Yeah, thought so, though personally I'd rather have no dropped frames after resuming.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Yeah, thought so, though personally I'd rather have no dropped frames after resuming.

Fair enough. But the render queue does fill up, doesn't it? Pre-filling the present queue for resumed playback is not possible because presentation is executed by D3D immediately. So as soon as I fill the presentation queue with resumed playback, playback will resume.

[ryrynz]

Yeah no probs with the queues, I can live with it. Hope there's some nice new features coming soon xD

[madshi]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Hope there's some nice new features coming soon xD

[Sebastiii]

the future next version looks promising as usual

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by steakhutzeee

I have to see from the original file, the shot is from the original movie and not from the sample. Btw, from the sample, i think it's 00:53 sec.

It's not from 00:53, the hand is not in the same position. I've found it in your sample: it's frame 1352 / time 00:56.389
Here are two screenshots I made of that same frame:

with madVR (only chroma upscaling and output to 8-bit ordered dithering, no image enhancement or refinement): https://postimg.org/image/1d54jnqpob/
with EVR (all video processing options disabled in NVIDIA control panel): https://postimg.org/image/8yft217gjf/

As you can see, the brightness and artefacts coming from the compression are the same with madVR as with the graphics card driver's own rendering, that's why I think your VLC screenshot is the one with a problem.

Originally Posted by steakhutzeee

I don't understand what you say about the aspct ratio and the EVR, i'm not so good at this

The video frame of your sample is 1920x800. madVR renders this exact size but for some reason your VLC screenshot, as well as Windows' system default EVR renderer (on my system at least), render at 1920x804 by stretching the image vertically 4 pixels taller. You can see that by comparing your own screenshot with the two I made. (Edit: I cropped the madVR screenshot to 804 too so you can see the two 2-pixel high bands above and below the image)
I don't why that is but it's not good for the image quality. (maybe someone elses know why? I used MPC-HC for both EVR and madVR shots)

Edit: aaah, I think I found the cause in the filter's Pin Info:

- Connection media type:
Video: NV12 2048x800 (191:80) 23.976fps

The aspect ratio is computed as 2.3875:1 which gives 1920x804 (also the image is transmitted as 2048 wide but the renderer probably crops it to 1920).
This also happens with Windows' own Films & TV app too, so I think it's an EVR bug.
If you still needed one, that's another reason to use madVR to be sure you've got the best rendering quality possible!

[steakhutzeee]

Originally Posted by el Filou

It's not from 00:53, the hand is not in the same position. I've found it in your sample: it's frame 1352 / time 00:56.389
Here are two screenshots I made of that same frame:

with madVR (only chroma upscaling and output to 8-bit ordered dithering, no image enhancement or refinement): https://postimg.org/image/1d54jnqpob/
with EVR (all video processing options disabled in NVIDIA control panel): https://postimg.org/image/8yft217gjf/

As you can see, the brightness and artefacts coming from the compression are the same with madVR as with the graphics card driver's own rendering, that's why I think your VLC screenshot is the one with a problem.

The video frame of your sample is 1920x800. madVR renders this exact size but for some reason your VLC screenshot, as well as Windows' system default EVR renderer (on my system at least), render at 1920x804 by stretching the image vertically 4 pixels taller. You can see that by comparing your own screenshot with the two I made. (Edit: I cropped the madVR screenshot to 804 too so you can see the two 2-pixel high bands above and below the image)
I don't why that is but it's not good for the image quality. (maybe someone elses know why? I used MPC-HC for both EVR and madVR shots)

Edit: aaah, I think I found the cause in the filter's Pin Info:

- Connection media type:
Video: NV12 2048x800 (191:80) 23.976fps

The aspect ratio is computed as 2.3875:1 which gives 1920x804 (also the image is transmitted as 2048 wide but the renderer probably crops it to 1920).
This also happens with Windows' own Films & TV app too, so I think it's an EVR bug.
If you still needed one, that's another reason to use madVR to be sure you've got the best rendering quality possible!

Thank you very much!

So actually VLC is enlarging the picture and is having artifacts. Madvr instead is processing all the right way.

Well, but point is that i can't see all that brightness with VLC, maybe it's the right way it has to be processed but what if i should have a 'less bright' image?

Hope i understood your point and that i'm not asking something very noob :P So the question, where that brightness come from in MadVR?

Here are my settings if you want to try with them: http://www95.zippyshare.com/v/Sf5ZlMlX/file.html

[arrgh]

Originally Posted by madshi

But if you want to move this all forward, you really need to start answering my questions. In this post:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...81#post1816681

I had asked you ""Also"? So this is not a new problem?" but I didn't get a reply to that. I need to know if this is a new problem introduced in the latest madVR builds, or if the problem has always existed.
...
And in this post I have also asked a couple of questions which you didn't reply to yet:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...13#post1817413

yes, also older versions show this behavior; at that time I updated to 0.92.2, so all the 92 have it; one or two weeks ago I downloaded a 91-version, I think it was 0.91.5; this did also hang;

to the flashig frequency, I tried to answer here https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...27#post1820027
but i have some "new" details; after those different tests, also with the 32bit versions and a hint by ryrynz to try d3d9, I just today rechecked the madVR settings in that respect (0.92.4) with 64bit software;

outcome :
if I deactivate in renderer/general all Options, especially "full exclusive" and "direct3D11", than there is no studder anymore (not in 2D and not in 3D);
if I activate "exclusive" then 2D still works but 3D starts to studder every 1-2 sec; if I add 3d11 the studder becomes hectic in 3D and regular, but slower, in 2D;
in all settings the player does not come clean out of 3D and hangs;

so, I'm a little bit confused, since I'm quite sure I have tried allready all possible permutations in those settings in the past; and I thought that 3D automatically starts 3D11, or am I wrong?
mabe it was also some hickup in the registry settings?

so, at least I have a somewhat working system (not sure whether I'm limited performance/feature wise); the shutdown problem remains to be solved

[el Filou]

@steakhutzeee The brightness isn't coming from madVR, rather it's the darkness that is coming from VLC.
The overall brightness levels of your madVR screenshot are identical to mine and, more importantly, to EVR too, so the most probable cause is that it's VLC that is modifying the image brightness and not madVR.
I don't know why that is, I've never used VLC and I hope you'll understand I won't discuss it here.

[Anime Viewer]

Originally Posted by madshi

Spot on right!

Could be a GPU hardware defect (or overclocked VRAM or GPU), or a faulty HDMI cable, or a faulty TV HDMI input port. But this doesn't sound like anything madVR would be at fault for.

The VRAM and GPU are not overclocked, so that should rule them out. I've viewed it directly on the notebook's built in monitor, and still see the issue occuring there, so that should rule out the HDMI cable and the TV HDMI as well as the TV itself.

I'll keep testing things, and see if I can isolate it to something in settings.

[huhn]

sorry to inform you but the missing overclocking doesn't make your hardware immune to defects.

check the temps. it's a laptop and the small cooler are getting dusty over the time or the GPU are simply defect.

i'm not ruling out driver issues or the interference of after programs here.

[Asmodian]

That really does sound like GPU memory issues, not madVR or even other software, I have regularly gotten little white lines when pushing my GPU memory too far. Does the length of the line correspond to one of the tile sizes in Nvidia's tile based rendering?

RAM simply goes bad sometimes and the exact workload that might show the error is pretty random. It probably shows up with madVR because of temperature or maybe because madVR uses regions of memory or memory access patterns that other applications do not.

That said, if you do find some setting please let us know what it was!

[steakhutzeee]

Originally Posted by el Filou

@steakhutzeee The brightness isn't coming from madVR, rather it's the darkness that is coming from VLC.
The overall brightness levels of your madVR screenshot are identical to mine and, more importantly, to EVR too, so the most probable cause is that it's VLC that is modifying the image brightness and not madVR.
I don't know why that is, I've never used VLC and I hope you'll understand I won't discuss it here.

Yes, clear! I use vlc just to make comparison

[aufkrawall]

What's your opinion on madVR's HDR conversion settings?
To my eyes, default setting of 400nits looks too dim for sRGB displays with gamma of 2.2, even in a room with dimmed lights. I prefer 350nits.
The high quality hue preservation seems to be totally worth the costs, as it prevents yellow and orange from turning into reddish.
I'm not sure about measuring each frame's peak luminance. It can prevent some overly glaring look, but the result can also be less spectacular.
"restore details in compressed highlights" can lead to extreme ringing and more aliasing, I don't think the more detailed look of bright areas is worth this.

[huhn]

the nit setting depends alot on your screen brightness. so it is impossible to give an accurate answer here.

[Anime Viewer]

Originally Posted by huhn

sorry to inform you but the missing overclocking doesn't make your hardware immune to defects.

check the temps. it's a laptop and the small cooler are getting dusty over the time or the GPU are simply defect.

i'm not ruling out driver issues or the interference of after programs here.

What temperatures should be of concern?

From running monitoring tools default GPU temp is 47* C and max its running at appears to be 69* C. From what I recall from the past 90-100+* C might be of concern.

CPU cores are reporting temperatures from 69*C to 88*C.

Originally Posted by Asmodian

That really does sound like GPU memory issues, not madVR or even other software, I have regularly gotten little white lines when pushing my GPU memory too far. Does the length of the line correspond to one of the tile sizes in Nvidia's tile based rendering?

I'm not familiar with what a "tile" size is. They are small little lines (don't go very far across the screen) that seem to be randomly spread in their location.

[pirlouy]

Originally Posted by madshi

Which video fps are we talking about? 24fps or 60fps? madVR is currently not very good at playing 24fps at 60Hz, if smooth motion is disabled. The pulldown interval is pretty random, which may confuse your TV. You should really play 24fps content at 24Hz, not 60Hz. Or alternatively use smooth motion.

I see I forgot to mention it was a 23,976fps video indeed.
Tbh I used to swear only by interpolation/Smooth Motion, but now I realize blended frames tend to blur everything. You know, the eternal 24fps<->60Hz choice: blurry or jerky. But in the end it's a minor problem for me: I have a 120Hz monitor (no interpolation/SM), and for my TV I use same refresh rate as video fps (when madVR let me) or a multiple (it's a 120Hz panel, good for 24fps).

BTW, even with SM, madVR troubles the algorithm of my TV and I have judder. It is as surprising as interesting, it makes me wonder how their algorithm work.
Anyway it's not a bug in madVR, I just shared what I think could help those having judder without understanding why.

[aufkrawall]

Originally Posted by huhn

the nit setting depends alot on your screen brightness. so it is impossible to give an accurate answer here.

My display surely is brighter than the recommended 120nits display brightness for office displays in a lit room. I'd consider this as a clear indicator for the default setting of 400nits in madVR being too dark.

[Fabulist]

Originally Posted by madshi

Sounds complicated. But if you look at "el Filou"'s recent posts, he also reported issues with black & white levels, and for him the "content type" was involved in finding a solution.

For me it's extremely difficult to help in this case because every TV behaves differently, and some have really weird options. E.g. look at mrmarioman's recent post. He had to switch a very specific option in this TV to make it work.

It is complicated: I suppose that if everything was working as intended and under ideal conditions the TV should identify the content properly, as defined from NVIDIA's CP/Software and calibrate accordingly. Of course it does not really work for me nor did it solve my problem, it instead introduced different ones in some cases. Note that I am using a custom mode, clean in some sense. It is close to THX's modes but with a "Normal" colour temperature and native colour space instead of the "Warm" and 709 colour space the THX mode prefers. I have no powerful image enhancing gimmicks or specials enabled. The issue is seen across all modes, especially on Dynamic mode which toys with the dark levels a lot.

I did read el Filou's (and everyone's) posts about the issue, but the grey blacks strike to me as a different issue from this one, I could be wrong though. However, considering that my issue persists across 3 different graphics cards from 3 different generations, this is a TV problem and not an NVIDIA problem I suppose. It is also not a cable / receiver / player problem.

Originally Posted by madshi

Well, I would need to have my hands on your PC and TV to figure out what's going on exactly. I can't really solve this issue remotely. It's possible that your TV is simply broken in such a way that it can't properly handle RGB input with correct black & white levels from your GPU, for some reason. Or maybe it needs a very specific set of options to be activated.

In any case, as the other users already indicated, THX and Cinema modes are *usually* the most accurate modes. If you don't like them that could mean that they're broken on your TV. Or it could mean that you're so used to the "wrong" modes that the accurate modes look bad to you now. It's impossible for me to judge. When using THX or Cinema modes, if you disregard the warm colors and bad "look" to your eyes, do the black & white levels at least work correctly? If so, that would be a clue as to why they might not work correctly in the other modes.

I really do not think what I am seeing can be accurate in terms of colour temperature on the THX/Cinema modes but I am no expert, as I said before; this is a matter of preference for me and others with which we calibrated the settings, it could be we are simply wrong. We compared the video we are getting from THX/Cinema modes to a real cinema theater, and the one major issue persisted; the colours were significantly more yellowish than what was expected or seen on a cinema theater. We did read online about how accurate and 'correct' THX modes are supposed to be and we were patient over multiple screenings until we get "used to it" - but we never did get used to it, everything looked unnaturally yellowish among other things.

With that said, switching the colour temperature to "Normal" from "Warm" does make a significant improvement in these THX/Cinema modes, they do not look as broken anymore. But they were still not the best we could get via manually customized settings. Lastly, unfortunately the issue persists among every single mode and mode/setting combination, but not when playing blu-ray discs on a player - so this is not a mode or eye issue (hopefully). I did also run various black and white calibration tests that confirmed this.

Thank you very much for your time and discussion everyone, I will update if I find a valid solution to this that could benefit others. Thanks again!

[mzso]

Originally Posted by madshi

This problem will be fixed in the next madVR build.

Great - thanks! I hope to have this fixed in the next build.

Great! It's nice to see progress in these long standing issues.

I have one more issue with ProgDVB+madVR though. The OSD doesn't appear right. I set it to HD but it's SD (and stretched to full width).
I reported it to the author, he concluded: "Thren MadVR working with 720x576 but not working with 1980x1080 bitmaps."
Of course I can't tell whether he's right or wrong.