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Old 20th December 2016, 21:42   #41641  |  Link
StinDaWg
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So basically there is no workaround and I need to manually edit/delete resolutions in madVR every time I want to use SVP?
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Old 20th December 2016, 21:57   #41642  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
ffdshow always blocks all communication between LAV and madVR.
Still waiting for the day I don't need ffdshow raw any more. Having similar functionality built into madVR suppotring both Avisynth+/Vapoursynth would be great.
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Old 21st December 2016, 00:15   #41643  |  Link
Georgel
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Smooth motion and dithering impact each other. ED dithering has a bigger performance hit when using smooth motion because there are a lot more frames that need dithering.

Smooth motion is very important when using a 60Hz display for anything but 30fps video.
My display is 75Hz from factory, and smooth motion has more impact and doesn't have much effect visually. Videos that are 24 fps or 23.xx will still look jumpy if the objects is moving across the screen and it's moving too fast.
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Old 21st December 2016, 00:53   #41644  |  Link
Asmodian
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What you notice is simply low frame rate video but there is another issue caused by frame time mismatch.

With a 75 Hz display and 23.976 fps video each frame wants to be displayed for 41.71 ms but Vsync is every 13.3 ms. This means that most frames are displayed for 40 ms but every ~8 frames one frame is displayed for 53.3 ms. This isn't too bad, only 33% longer, you might not notice it but it isn't ideal.

The effect is worse at 60 Hz, with half the frames displayed for 33.3 ms and the other half displayed for 50 ms, 50% longer. This is quite visible (to me at least) as uneven choppiness or judder, even worse than normal low frame rate video.

Smooth motion allows madVR to display every frame for exactly 41.71ms.

edit: with 29.970 fps video on your 75 Hz display you get a similar effect to 23.976 fps video on a 60 Hz display. Half the frames are displayed for 26.67 ms and the other half for 40 ms, 50% longer.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 21st December 2016 at 02:24. Reason: Added %s, fixed frequency
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Old 21st December 2016, 02:51   #41645  |  Link
EncodedMango
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
Are you using LAV filters? Have you enabled DXVA Copy Back?
Yeah LAV. I'm using DXVA Native not copy-back. I have no clue if I should be using CB instead

Last edited by EncodedMango; 21st December 2016 at 03:00.
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Old 21st December 2016, 03:03   #41646  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Originally Posted by sidspyker View Post
Yeah LAV. I'm using DXVA Native not copy-back. I have no clue if I should be using CB instead
DXVA 2 Native should NEVER be used with madvr.

Last edited by AngelGraves13; 21st December 2016 at 03:07.
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Old 21st December 2016, 03:10   #41647  |  Link
EncodedMango
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
DXVA 2 Native should NEVER be used with madvr.
Good to know, I was using CUVID until recently, switched to DXVA only recently to try out.
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Old 21st December 2016, 10:05   #41648  |  Link
Kotik
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
DXVA 2 Native should NEVER be used with madvr.
Is there a specific reason why CB is a better choice compared to Native?I notice people almost always prefer CB, i have been using Native myself and dont recall any issues. What are the advantages that CB offers?
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Old 21st December 2016, 10:27   #41649  |  Link
huhn
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with nvidia chroma will suffer with DXVA native.

rendertimes are a bit higher if DXVA chroma scaling isn't used. madVR is doing some additional computing.

CB work with every other filter like SVP, ffdshow raw, xy vsfilter and stuff like that native isn't working here.

neo-xp
bicubic is faster than lanczos 3
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Old 21st December 2016, 10:44   #41650  |  Link
StinDaWg
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Also film mode deinterlacing (ivtc) doesn't work with dxva native.
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Old 21st December 2016, 11:06   #41651  |  Link
huhn
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yeah black boarder detection doesn't work completely the list is long.
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Old 21st December 2016, 11:32   #41652  |  Link
Q-the-STORM
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Originally Posted by sidspyker View Post
Good to know, I was using CUVID until recently, switched to DXVA only recently to try out.
You should also not use CUVID btw :P
if you're gonna use anything, use CB...
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Old 21st December 2016, 11:38   #41653  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
neo-xp
bicubic is faster than lanczos 3
For less than 1ms difference, it is worth it to use Lanczos instead of Bicubic IMO. For instance, NGU-low for chroma doubling adds ~10ms.

As already said, there are several ways for madshi to change that :

1. Make Bicubic60 AR the "Low" quality choice for chroma doubling, as it should be, and Lanczos3 AR the "Normal" one.

As NGU for chroma doubling is overkill and should only be available for highest quality settings only.

2. An option to link the chroma doubling algorithm with the upscaling algorithm used after doubling, like it was before.

As I can't afford NGU for luma quadrupling, I use Lanczos3 AR after doubling with NGU, and it seems logic to use the same algorithm for chroma doubling, at least for me

3. Replace Bicubic60 AR by Lanczos3 AR.

I prefer when users can choose themselves, but those two algorithms have the same impact on performance (by 1ms). Lanczos performs better (sharper) and is closer to NGU than Bicubic.

I can't wait to test the changes made to NGU on v0.91.2, but I need to be able to use the same configuration (Lanczos 3 AR for chroma doubling and disable image quadrupling) to compare.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 21st December 2016 at 13:29.
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Old 21st December 2016, 11:42   #41654  |  Link
huhn
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i think spline is better than lanczos in all cases but what ever...

4 don't waste development time on this.
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Old 21st December 2016, 13:20   #41655  |  Link
jkauff
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I think these posts about minor differences in settings are not helping madshi get where he wants to go.

As I understand it, he's working toward a Version 1.0 that will be easy to configure and will work best for MOST users in MOST situations MOST of the time. That seems to be his focus at the moment. Just like we have a madVR [debug].ax file in the package today, he could give us a madVR [expert].ax file that would have the old complex UI with all the choices for those who need/want complete control. That should satisfy most of the posters who can't live with the v0.91 approach. I think that would work better than hiding that functionality behind a tab or button labeled "Advanced", as they do in Handbrake.

We should be helping madshi by telling him if the new UI is simple and clear enough; if the choices he's made for default settings are best for the casual/new user; and what additional changes would be useful in a 1.0 release. All the "THESE settings look best for MY needs" posts are probably just distracting, and certainly aren't moving madVR forward.
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Old 21st December 2016, 13:49   #41656  |  Link
Telion
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Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
We should be helping madshi by telling him <...> if the choices he's made for default settings are best for the casual/new user
But there is no casual/new users on this forum, so we really can't judge on this topic unbiased. The only thing one can definitely assert is that for the casual user the dumber, the better. So just throw out as many settings as you can and it would be OK for them. Everyone else should just stick to profiles and use scripting for every possible video they would eventually view.
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Old 21st December 2016, 14:18   #41657  |  Link
Neo-XP
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Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
I think these posts about minor differences in settings are not helping madshi get where he wants to go.

As I understand it, he's working toward a Version 1.0 that will be easy to configure and will work best for MOST users in MOST situations MOST of the time. That seems to be his focus at the moment. Just like we have a madVR [debug].ax file in the package today, he could give us a madVR [expert].ax file that would have the old complex UI with all the choices for those who need/want complete control. That should satisfy most of the posters who can't live with the v0.91 approach. I think that would work better than hiding that functionality behind a tab or button labeled "Advanced", as they do in Handbrake.

We should be helping madshi by telling him if the new UI is simple and clear enough; if the choices he's made for default settings are best for the casual/new user; and what additional changes would be useful in a 1.0 release. All the "THESE settings look best for MY needs" posts are probably just distracting, and certainly aren't moving madVR forward.
I don't think madshi will give us the old UI back unfortunately, and a madVR [expert].ax file is not a good solution IMO, because it will require more work to develop two UI in parallel.

As for the new UI, I've already proposed something and another user too :

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...17#post1789617
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...46#post1789646

I don't think there are "best settings" for the casual/new user, because the choice mostly depends on the power of the GPU used to run madVR and the user's taste.

madshi could make some general presets for those users, while leaving all the available settings for advanced users in a clear, but not limited UI.

For instance, on the same page, you could choose the type of GPU (Very Low - Low - Medium - High - Very High - Ultra), the type of image that you like (Soft - Normal - Sharp) and the type of content (Anime - Film), and MadVR would choose the right settings for you if you don't know anything about scalers and renderers and don't want to bother to test by yourself every possibility.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 21st December 2016 at 14:41.
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Old 21st December 2016, 14:38   #41658  |  Link
ThurstonX
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Originally Posted by Telion View Post
But there is no casual/new users on this forum, so we really can't judge on this topic unbiased. The only thing one can definitely assert is that for the casual user the dumber, the better. So just throw out as many settings as you can and it would be OK for them. Everyone else should just stick to profiles and use scripting for every possible video they would eventually view.
LOL. I'm definitely a "casual" user, if that means I don't do a lot of detailed image comparisons, going through most/all possible combinations, yada yada yada. Sometimes I enjoy reading those posts herein, but other than trying various algorithms and combinations on actual video content I'm planning to watch, and getting the best bang for the buck in terms of quality-vs.-resource usage (render and queue stats, mostly), I don't spend too much time fiddling. Now, when madshi introduces something new like NGU, I do more comparisons and see what I can see. So far I'm pretty impressed with NGU, and was really happy to see I could run it at Luma High and Chroma Med. (IIRC) on a Blu-ray rip onto an inexpensive LG 1080 LED TV (so, not too taxing).

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only "casual" lurker in this and the LAV thread. And no, you may definitely NOT say that "for the casual user the dumber, the better. So just throw out as many settings as you can and it would be OK for them." I enjoy twiddlin' the knobs to experiment, when time permits.

Just sayin'.
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Old 21st December 2016, 15:32   #41659  |  Link
Telion
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trying various algorithms and combinations on actual video content I'm planning to watch, and getting the best bang for the buck in terms of quality-vs.-resource usage (render and queue stats, mostly)
LOL, but you're definitely not a casual user, you even know what are chroma and luma. A typical casual user usually doesn't bother to change settings at all (let alone understand their meaning), or just once blindly sets them according to some random guide found on the net. He also believes there are some magical "best" settings for everyone (or at least for a high-end rig) and assumes they are mostly the ones obtained out of the box. And he definitely won't visit a software's discussion board except when he runs into some problems.
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Old 21st December 2016, 15:52   #41660  |  Link
Damien147
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Now that you mentioned dxva(native) I get black screen when playing P010(<--is this correct way to say it?) movies but cb also sometimes gives me slowdown/jerky playback.I guess hardware decoder set to none will work for me.
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