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Old 7th June 2011, 12:27   #8041  |  Link
e-t172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
These are the primaries/secondaries saturations on my ex-Mitsubishi HC3100:

Who's to blame? Me? My spanking new Eye One colorimeter(their gelatin filters age poorly, so I always make sure to use a fairly new one)? Mitsubishi is to blame! coz they didn't allow those saturations to be adjusted every 10 IRE. Surely, I could fix them w/ a CLUT using ARGYLL...but that'll be processed in 8bit, the pj inner settings work in 12bit
The best solution would probably be to use ARGYLL to generate a very precise 3dlut instead of an ICC profile (or convert the ICC profile to a 3dlut). This way you could have a 3dlut which not only covers primaries, secondaries and grayscale, but every other color as well, with independant gamma ramps for every RGB channel (something yCMS isn't able to do - yet). Then you load this 3dlut into madVR, and you get near-perfect colorimetry. The only problem is it will be downsampled to 8-bit, but considering madVR's dithering it shouldn't make a noticeable difference.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any software which convers high-precision measurements from an ARGYLL results file or an ICC profile to a 3dlut... there is a need to fill here!

In fact you can already approach this by loading the ICC profile into Windows. There are two problems though: (1) it is very probable the card's VideoLUT won't do any dithering, and (2) my experiments seem to show that although individual RGB channels are corrected, the primaries (gamut) are not. Anyone know why loading an ICC profile into Windows fix gamma but not the gamut? Maybe that's because I'm using Eye-One Match instead of ARGYLL, and the ICC profile generated by Eye-One is at fault? I'll try with ARGYLL as soon as I get the time.

Last edited by e-t172; 7th June 2011 at 12:30.
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:34   #8042  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
The best solution would probably be to use ARGYLL to generate a very precise 3dlut
Surely, but that's not the job of the ISF..which was my original point. They don't do 8bit color correction, and they don't make LUT's. They use the display onboard settings only as they're readily available, work on all inputs and work in 10/12bit.

I asked tritical if I could compensate for those saturations in a 3DLUT and he said no...so that settles it

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
Anyone know why loading an ICC profile into Windows fix gamma but not the gamut? Maybe that's because I'm using Eye-One Match instead of ARGYLL, and the ICC profile generated by Eye-One is at fault? I'll try with ARGYLL as soon as I get the time
That's because the graphic card's CLUT is 1D only, you need a 3DLUT to map gamuts. It was confirmed to me by Graeme Gill BTW
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:41   #8043  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post


Hmmmm... You say you're "switching display devices". What does that mean exactly? How are you doing that?
My laptop has an 8600M-GT video card and has the following ports on it: HDMI, S-Video and VGA. I have my external monitor hooked up to the VGA port and my projector to the HDMI port. I press Function + F6 and the video gets alternatively output through each port if a device is plugged into it (internal laptop video screen --> the external monitor (video output only through VGA port) --> the projector (video output only through HDMI port) --> back to internal laptop screen). Basically I'm just selecting the video display (device) on which to view the operating system desktop and thus selecting which video display device on which to view the videos I am playing.

Last edited by andybkma; 7th June 2011 at 12:50.
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:55   #8044  |  Link
cvrkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
With madVR v0.62/63 you don't need to know how to use yCMS. All you need to do it measure your display and enter your measurements in the "yCMS" tab in the madVR settings dialog.
How can I do that? I have Panasonic TX-p42g20e
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:56   #8045  |  Link
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@leeperry

I can partially accept your reasoning but I would never ask or even accept money for a calibration if the overal result of my changes is worse than the default state. And the objective way to figure it out that you check some (>40) random colors and of course judge the result sumjectively.
If the overal result is worse then I would ask for apologise, restore the factory settings, leave the fild, refuse any other contracts for the particular display model and recommend it to my collegues to do the same.
I know, this is why I am not a real pro.


If you mentioned Samsung... Did you saw their latest PDPs? I wouldn't give my 51D550 in exchange for the much more expensive 50GT30. And I simply unable to understand why many people prefer the Panasonic PDPs (I talk about 2D of course, 3D is a joke anyway...).
Well, may be they never try to set up the settings properly because I admit that the THX mode on Pana is almost "spot-on" (given the possibilities) and Sam requires a complicated ad long calibration. (I fully reconfigured my ADC/WP setting in the SM and played a lot with the user OSD too but it worth it...)
I don't even use 3DLUTs anymore because they make very slight difference and the slightly off state looks subjectively better or me. (And ah yes, I would never play games or watch movies on LCD anymore, p/H-IPS or not...)


And I the thechnoly is alredy here: 3DLUT. (Professionals widely use it already.) It could be carried out as a fully automated process.
But no... An IFS guy will ask for even more sliders in the OSD. (I image tercier color sliders and +1 point in every year for grayscale to make it look like an improvement...)
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:56   #8046  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Some custom rules for primaries would be neat.
Say all 720p content i watch is from HD broadcasts (re-encoded from 1080i MPEG-2 after deinterlacing/IVTC), and all 1080p content i watch is from BDs - any chance we would get some automatic switching of the primaries for those?
leeperry wants rules for primaries, too, so that makes at least 2 people. I guess I'll implement it sooner or later, but not too soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
How will you know what levels the Fraps decoder uses, since these kind of filters will never output such information?
Isn't Fraps video always 0-255? In that case I could just detect that the video is Fraps encoded, then madVR would automatically know the content is 0-255.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Sure, if you count setting CoreAVC's and ffdshow's options to TV range when I have a PC monitor, I guess you could count them as working with madVR
It is not the job of the decoder to modify video/PC levels. Many decoders do not even offer a switch for that!! Still many of them they support RGB output, if the renderer refuses to accept YCbCr connections. Guess what the decoders output then? Video levels!

Let me say it again: The task of a decoder is to decode. It is not the task of the decoder to do anything display specific. Doing display specific things is the task of the video renderer. So setting your decoder to convert video level source material to PC levels is conceptually "wrong", from my point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
1. You're asking me to fool the decoder about my output levels
No, I'm asking you to tell the decoder to leave the levels alone. The decoder is supposed to decode and nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
... so madVR, which assumes video levels for everything, produces proper output.
As I said, I plan to improve madVR in this regard. You can see from the madVR version number (< 1.0) that it's still a work in progress, not feature complete yet. If you want a fully feature complete version you'll have to wait for v1.0.

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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
2. I can configure my decoder properly, then I fool madVR about my display levels
Except that you haven't configured your decoder "properly". Actually you've configured it wrong, because it's not the job of the decoder to do display specific things. The decoder doesn't even know if you really display the decoded video somewhere or whether you're feeding it into a DirectShow MPEG2 encoder filter or something like that. The decoder is the wrong place to do display specific things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Native RGB content. I'm screwed, because only the madVR route is available here, and I'd have to manually change it every time I want to see a Fraps video.
I agree with you that this is not good. As I said, madVR is not feature complete yet. The aim is to make everything work automatically and correctly, as long as you configure the decoder to leave levels untouched. And I'm confident I'll make that work in a future madVR version.

As a nice workaround for now, you can simply press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Y, that will make madVR switch between video <-> PC levels on the fly. This way you don't have to open up settings dialogs and search for the level setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
4. Let's say you make an interface, header or whatever, so decoders can tell madVR the properties of the source.
Why do you come back to this idea? I told you this is not what I'm aiming to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
I'll tell you again that there's no proper solution for this
You think you know that better than me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
HD is always using the BT.709 YCbPr decoding matrix, no exception.
Ok, thx.
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Old 7th June 2011, 13:00   #8047  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by andybkma View Post
My laptop has an 8600M-GT video card and has the following ports on it: HDMI, S-Video and VGA. I have my external monitor hooked up to the VGA port and my projector to the HDMI port. I press Function + F6 and the video gets alternatively output through each port if a device is plugged into it (internal laptop video screen --> the external monitor (video output only through VGA port) --> the projector (video output only through HDMI port) --> back to internal laptop screen). Basically I'm just selecting the video display (device) on which to view the operating system desktop and thus selecting which video display device on which to view the videos I am playing.
Hmmmmm... It seems that the OS in this scenario doesn't tell applications about these changes. If you use an application (e.g. MonInfo) which lists the EDID block of the display, do you get different EDID blocks when you switch displays?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvrkuth View Post
How can I do that? I have Panasonic TX-p42g20e
Do you have a meter to measure your display? That's a requirement if you want madVR/yCMS to calibrate your display.
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Old 7th June 2011, 13:11   #8048  |  Link
jmone
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Do you have a meter to measure your display? That's a requirement if you want madVR/yCMS to calibrate your display.
Any suggestions/recomendations on an affordable meter?
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Old 7th June 2011, 13:22   #8049  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
leeperry wants rules for primaries, too, so that makes at least 2 people. I guess I'll implement it sooner or later, but not too soon.
Oh, I thought this was the current scope...OK, I can wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I would never ask or even accept money for a calibration if the overal result of my changes was worse than the default state
Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I don't even use 3DLUTs anymore because they make a very slight difference and the slightly off state looks subjectively better or me.
You seem to have gotten used to the colors of your uncalibrated display...some ppl don't like D65 and use D75, some others use Reclock@25fps even though their display fully supports a 24Hz multiple. At the end of the day, what truly matters is your own satisfaction.

Surely, D65 and 24Hz take some time to get used to...and I've got a hard time believing that a calibrated display would look "worse" than uncalibrated. Crushed whites, dark blacks, FUBAR gamma curves...blueish/greenish teints....you can't fix those w/o a colorimeter. Either you learn the tricks of the trade and buy an Eye One, or you call a pro and pay for it.

It'd be like asking a pro to tune a POS old car, and then complain that the results of his work don't quite meet your expectations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
you mentioned Samsung... Did you see their latest PDPs?
Nope, I've got no interest in Samsung whatsoever...I'm only interested in the high level of expertise Joe Kane provided them w/ on those high end DLP projectors. We need to learn from it, and get it all embedded within mVR.

Last edited by leeperry; 7th June 2011 at 13:24.
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Old 7th June 2011, 13:39   #8050  |  Link
janos666
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No, I used a "perfectly" calibrated H-IPS for a year with every possible corrections.
I stopped using 3DLUT since I calibrated my new PDP with it's hardware controls and 3DLUTs make very slight difference. And considering the observer metamerism and sensor imperfections it's virtually nothing but the non-3DLUT corrected results looks subjectively better. (A very mild oversaturation is every directions.) My setting are still D65, gamma ~2.2
But the higher contrast ratio and smaller native gamut (did you care about the observer metamerism when you think you use offser WP? May be it's visually closer to what you called D65 on another display...) produces a noticably different image. (That' why I take this question less seriously now...)
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Old 7th June 2011, 13:47   #8051  |  Link
andybkma
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmmm... It seems that the OS in this scenario doesn't tell applications about these changes. If you use an application (e.g. MonInfo) which lists the EDID block of the display, do you get different EDID blocks when you switch displays?
Hmm, I guess your right. I installed MonInfo and it always showed the Acer external monitor as the video device even when I had the internal laptop display selected. When I unplugged the Acer external then MonInfo showed the BenQ projector as the video device. Only when I unplugged both the external monitor and the projector from the laptop ports then MonInfo showed my internal laptop display as the correct and proper device.

I guess it really doesn't matter does it? They are all pretty much digital devices and I don't think I would get a better picture on my projector vs the Acer external monitor even if madVR would recognize it properly, right?
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Old 7th June 2011, 14:02   #8052  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by andybkma View Post
Hmm, I guess your right. I installed MonInfo and it always showed the Acer external monitor as the video device even when I had the internal laptop display selected. When I unplugged the Acer external then MonInfo showed the BenQ projector as the video device. Only when I unplugged both the external monitor and the projector from the laptop ports then MonInfo showed my internal laptop display as the correct and proper device.

I guess it really doesn't matter does it? They are all pretty much digital devices and I don't think I would get a better picture on my projector vs the Acer external monitor even if madVR would recognize it properly, right?
If you can use the same settings for all then it shouldn't matter. Of course the purpose of the device/display management in madVR is to allow you to use different settings for different displays. If you can live without that, everything's fine.

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Originally Posted by jmone View Post
Any suggestions/recomendations on an affordable meter?
I'm not really an expert on this. Maybe someone else can help out. If not, you could ask in the yCMS thread.
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Old 7th June 2011, 14:03   #8053  |  Link
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Hi madshi.

Thanks for the new build. But I have a problem with it. Until now, I've been using 3dlut files (generated with yCMS) in madvr, and was using this command for color correction:

Gamut_Measurements 0.6350 0.3321 0.2890 0.6007 0.1528 0.0647 0.3127 0.3294

just as it was intended to be:

Gamut_Measurements redx redy greenx greeny bluex bluey whitex whitey

But now, with the new builds (and with the new madvr version), this is not possible, and the procedure seems to be as in this example:

Gamut_Measurements 1
21.26 0.676 0.321
71.52 0.308 0.685
7.22 0.144 0.045
100.00 0.3127 0.3290

yesgrey told me that the first column (bold) was the Luminance, but when the calibrator did his job on my TV, he gave me the xy coordinates and they were 2 numbers for each component, not 3!! So I don't have that info. Is there any way to generate 3Dluts or use madvr color correction without luminance? How can I solve this?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 7th June 2011, 14:05   #8054  |  Link
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@cyberlolo, you really only need to ask in one thread. yesgrey and I are reading both. I'm sure you'll get a reply from yesgrey in the yCMS thread. Personally, I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure there is one.
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Old 7th June 2011, 14:38   #8055  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacemaker1000 View Post
there is no reason other than i dont know how
i just have the latest mpc and madvr installed, thats it. sounds like i need more. please could you enlighten me?
i suppose there is no way to use the HW acceleration and it must be done in software?

i only rip the main movie so all my rips have just one m2ts file. ( are subtitles here too? i havnt looked)
again how do you play them with mpc and madvr please?

thanks, sory if this is a dumb question
Personally I highly recommend the following:

LAV Splitter
LAV Audio
Your favorite video decoder based upon your hardware (LAV CUVID for nVidia to do GPU decoding and for me Cyberlink Video Decoder for HAM mode for GPU decoding to offload decoding to your video card)
ffdshow raw video filter for subs *UNLESS* you're using MPC-HC in which case use their internal sub renderer

With that combination you can just load the index.bdmv file in your BD folder and it will play the main movie. Or you can open an MPLS file. Or you can open your m2ts file. However you wanna do it.
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Old 7th June 2011, 14:45   #8056  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
@cyberlolo, you really only need to ask in one thread. yesgrey and I are reading both. I'm sure you'll get a reply from yesgrey in the yCMS thread. Personally, I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure there is one.
Ok, I didn't know you read both. Please sorry.
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Old 7th June 2011, 15:12   #8057  |  Link
janos666
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@madshi

Was your fix for the sync problem of the interlaced display mode that you disabled 1080i59?
I mean... was it the problem that my display doesn't really support it?
I kept these settings for v0.63: 1080p23, 1080i50, 1080i59
and now my display mode remains progressive 60.000Hz with 29.970fps materials. Could you explain it please?
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Old 7th June 2011, 15:26   #8058  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
Was your fix for the sync problem of the interlaced display mode that you disabled 1080i59?
I mean... was it the problem that my display doesn't really support it?
I kept these settings for v0.63: 1080p23, 1080i50, 1080i59
and now my display mode remains progressive 60.000Hz with 29.970fps materials. Could you explain it please?
Can I have a log (once again), please?
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Old 7th June 2011, 15:40   #8059  |  Link
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This time it switches but the display mode is 1080p59, not 1080i59 (the setup is still: 1080p23, 1080i50, 1080i59) -> log (1080i50 works)

But I found this: http://www.100fps.com/, and now it sounds like a bad idea to output interlaced signal (see "resized before deinterlacing" -> the chroma map is resized by madvr...)

Could somebody recommend a high quality deinterlacer filter? (Or which one is the best out of the many in FFDShow?)

Last edited by janos666; 7th June 2011 at 15:45.
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Old 7th June 2011, 15:47   #8060  |  Link
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Could somebody recommend a high quality deinterlacer filter? (Or which one is the best out of the many in FFDShow?)
If you're stuck with software deinterlacing, then yadif.
If you have an NVIDIA card, yu can use my LAV CUVID to use hardware decoding & hardware deinterlacing (best quality deinterlacing you can achieve with madVR, IMHO)
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