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Old 21st March 2018, 20:26   #49681  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Are we in agreement that newer drivers do not retain a 12bit setting after reboot and reverts to 8bit? If no, has anyone established why it sticks for some and not for others? If yes, are you all playing 10bit sources at 8bit even though your hardware is all 10 bit compatible?

huhn, is there something specific I should concentrate on there? If your simply pointing me to page one, well.......
The driver appears to work for some people and not for others. I don't know how to get in touch with the people in the know to fix it.
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Old 21st March 2018, 20:30   #49682  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
is this part not clear enough.

and literal nearly every TV supports 12 bit input that doesn't mean they are even 8 bit.

it's very simple, can you easily see a difference between 8 bit madVR output or 10 bit?

yes bother with it. no don't bother with it.
Send 10-bits unless you know your display can't support this, or if you notice banding is introduced by the display (or GPU), or if you want to simplify your set-up until HDMI 2.1 increases the available bandwidth. You won't cripple yourself by going to 8-bits, but this is not the highest possible quality.

My fingers are tired of typing about this topic, so I hope we're clear?

Someone else can confirm what bit depth the GPU is sending to the display; I don't know for sure.
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Old 21st March 2018, 20:40   #49683  |  Link
huhn
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so why should i bother with sending 10 bit if i know for sure my TV is 8 bit FRC (like nearly every Tv out there, except what LG claism for the OLEDs but there is no screen with more banding problems...). why should i send 10 bit if i know for sure it doesn't matter for image quality? so i send 10 bit because the number is higher? is 10 bit even better if it gets dithered again?

seriously why can't people simply use there eyes to judge it.

if you want to know what an GPU send it easy with an AMD card it will always send what you select be default it is 10 bit if the device supports it. by nvidia well not that easy. in the past the bitdeep option was ignored(generally not a totally bad idea if you ask me) and was based on what was used for presentation.
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Old 21st March 2018, 20:45   #49684  |  Link
Warner306
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so why should i bother with sending 10 bit if i know for sure my TV is 8 bit FRC (like nearly every Tv out there, except what LG claism for the OLEDs but there is no screen with more banding problems...). why should i send 10 bit if i know for sure it doesn't matter for image quality? so i send 10 bit because the number is higher? is 10 bit even better if it gets dithered again?

seriously why can't people simply use there eyes to judge it.

if you want to know what an GPU send it easy with an AMD card it will always send what you select be default it is 10 bit if the device supports it. by nvidia well not that easy. in the past the bitdeep option was ignored(generally not a totally bad idea if you ask me) and was based on what was used for presentation.
I outlined why you should not use 10-bits. It covers all of that.

And, 10-bit RGB > 8-bit RGB > 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 > 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:0. That is a direct quote from madshi. He didn't clarify the quality difference between each setting.

Last edited by Warner306; 21st March 2018 at 20:47.
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Old 21st March 2018, 20:45   #49685  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Send 10-bits unless you know your display can't support this, or if you notice banding is introduced by the display (or GPU), or if you want to simplify your set-up until HDMI 2.1 increases the available bandwidth. You won't cripple yourself by going to 8-bits, but this is not the highest possible quality.

My fingers are tired of typing about this topic, so I hope we're clear?

Someone else can confirm what bit depth the GPU is sending to the display; I don't know for sure.
I have already confirmed that. When set to 12bits, the GPU sends 12bits, at least here. Whether these 12bits are simply padded with trailing zero from the 10bits dithered output of MadVR (most likely) or “true” 12bits, I have no idea.
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Old 21st March 2018, 20:47   #49686  |  Link
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Sorry for bugging you guys. I'm just going to use the new driver and let it do its thing at 8bit. Fwiw, my 'go to' movie for checking this discussion is Allied 2016. Scene 2:15 through 3:00 shows a dessert slow pan with a cloudy sky. That sky shows banding using 12bit settings in NCP. Using the 8bit settings (that it's going to revert to after a reboot anyway), there is no banding. I don't know what higher quality I will miss by using 8bit but I won't miss that banding. Thanks for all the input. If I make further progress somewhere down the line, I'll share.
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Old 21st March 2018, 20:50   #49687  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Sorry for bugging you guys. I'm just going to use the new driver and let it do its thing at 8bit. Fwiw, my 'go to' movie for checking this discussion is Allied 2016. Scene 2:15 through 3:00 shows a dessert slow pan with a cloudy sky. That sky shows banding using 12bit settings in NCP. Using the 8bit settings (that it's going to revert to after a reboot anyway), there is no banding. I don't know what higher quality I will miss by using 8bit but I won't miss that banding. Thanks for all the input. If I make further progress somewhere down the line, I'll share.
One other thing...I read you were having trouble with MPC-BE in the Kodi forums. This only occurred when launching the player from Kodi.

Have you tried programming Stop and Exit to the same key on your remote instead of using the automatically close after playback setting? That is what I used to do and it never failed with either player.

I try and stay out of your set up guide. And I don't know anything about ISO's or BDMV's or batch files. Sorry to the other users, but Brazen posts a lot of set up information for new users to madVR that want to use Kodi.

Edit: Probably shouldn't have posted that here, but I did.

Last edited by Warner306; 21st March 2018 at 20:58.
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Old 21st March 2018, 20:59   #49688  |  Link
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bit deep is about banding and noise and that's.
the higher the bit deep the lower the noise floor.
even 6 bit can create a banding free image but most people will see the added noise to hide the banding.

and that'S why blindly using 10 bit is not a good idea there is a reason it is not default and no sending 8 bit with 10 bit madVR is not that bad... it's clearly not optimal to say it friendly.
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Old 21st March 2018, 21:02   #49689  |  Link
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And I shouldn't answer you and this will be the end of it. Yes, my remote is programmed exactly like that. For MPC-HC too yet each behaves differently. To get technical beyond my understanding, it depends if stereoscopic is engaged or not. Don't ask me why but that is exactly what it boils down to. I also map alt + f4 to force them to close if the auto function didn't. I prefer the auto close because the less interaction the better. You are welcome in my guide anytime. I appreciate you. You know that. Half of what I know is because of your guides and because of the diverse crowd here. Good folks all of you. Much nicer guide than mine for sure
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Last edited by brazen1; 21st March 2018 at 21:16.
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Old 21st March 2018, 21:09   #49690  |  Link
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Yes huhn. I've finally grasped what you are trying convey all this time. 8 bit vs 10 bit is just a couple of numbers. Because one is higher does not mean it is better especially when you consider hardware being used. In the end, what our eyes see should be our final deciding factor. You've been correct all along. Thank you for finally beating it into my head.
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Old 21st March 2018, 21:14   #49691  |  Link
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I have already confirmed that. When set to 12bits, the GPU sends 12bits, at least here. Whether these 12bits are simply padded with trailing zero from the 10bits dithered output of MadVR (most likely) or “true” 12bits, I have no idea.
Starting with madVR's dithered 10-bit output, what would be the difference between 10 bit with trailing zero and "true" 12 bit? The way you perfectly convert 10 bit to 12 bit is to add two zeros. This is a 2D image, we do not have new samples or anything to interpolate between. The best thing to do is simply add zeros, any further processing would generate some non-zero bits in the least two significant positions, reducing the effective bit depth loss from that processing step, but the source would simply have nothing but zero in those positions.
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Old 21st March 2018, 21:38   #49692  |  Link
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Simple MadVR options..

"Should I enable X?"
"Can you see a difference enabling X?"

Repeat ad nauseam.

Think we've covered this about half a dozen times already.

Last edited by ryrynz; 21st March 2018 at 21:41.
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Old 21st March 2018, 22:16   #49693  |  Link
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Starting with madVR's dithered 10-bit output, what would be the difference between 10 bit with trailing zero and "true" 12 bit? The way you perfectly convert 10 bit to 12 bit is to add two zeros. This is a 2D image, we do not have new samples or anything to interpolate between. The best thing to do is simply add zeros, any further processing would generate some non-zero bits in the least two significant positions, reducing the effective bit depth loss from that processing step, but the source would simply have nothing but zero in those positions.
I didn't say one would be better than the other, I just said that I have no idea what the driver does. So I don't know if it pads the 10bits handed by MadVR with 00 (which I indicated is more likely and I agree would be preferred) or if the driver does some kind of interpolation resulting in "true" 12bits. This is why I put quotes around the true, to make it clear that it would be "true" in name but not necessarily better. I clearly failed.

Now my fingers are tired too, so I'm off
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Old 21st March 2018, 22:32   #49694  |  Link
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There is nothing to interpolate through, I just don't understand what you imagine it could be doing. Making up non-zero values? There is only one value, nothing to interpolate between.
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Old 21st March 2018, 22:35   #49695  |  Link
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there is a way to fill it up with something else than 00. but we don't know and we can't change it anyway.
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Old 21st March 2018, 22:49   #49696  |  Link
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Simple MadVR options..

"Should I enable X?"
"Can you see a difference enabling X?"

Repeat ad nauseam.

Think we've covered this about half a dozen times already.
I think what some people want is objective answers and with MADVR there should be some objective advice that can be given. However with everyone having different eyesight, TV's, lighting conditions and setups in general most of the processing done in MADVR can now really on be subjectively different / better / worse in most cases.

I am aware there is a clear objective difference between 444 rgb and 420 ybcr but I personally choose to run everything in 10 bit 4:2:0, I get hammered for this everywhere but I genuinely see no difference at all between 8 bit 444 full RGB dithered and 10 bit 420, or maybe I should say I see no difference in real world viewing. I do however see a difference between madvr and standard EVR renderer.

set this way you dont have to worry about bit depth switching, bandwidth or anything, everything just works as it should.

I did try using 4:2:2 but I get small picture dropouts, a couple every evening, I see my receivers DIGI icon disappear when it happens so its losing connection, something in my setup cant handle that extra bandwidth, i've given up trying to find out what after 3 sets of HDMI cables. I'm sure its bandwidth as it doesnt do it at 422 4k 24hz, only 422 4k 60hz.
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Old 21st March 2018, 22:56   #49697  |  Link
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There is nothing to interpolate through, I just don't understand what you imagine it could be doing. Making up non-zero values? There is only one value, nothing to interpolate between.
I'm not saying there is something to interpolate. I'm only saying that I didn't look with an analyzer at the bits coming out of the GPU to be able to say for sure what the driver does. I've seen Sony bluray players "creating" data instead of padding with zeros when enabling "deep color", so I'm not going to say that this is what it is when I have no evidence. What makes you so sure that a driver might not do the wrong thing and "interpolate"?

If you are 100% sure that the driver pads with zeros because you've looked at the stream coming out of the nVidia GPU set to 12bits when MadVR sends 10bits dithered, by all means say so, otherwise please allow me to not state something that I am not sure of.

The only thing I can guarantee is that the driver does output 12bits when set to 12bits, because I can see that with the Vertex. What's in the last two bits, I can't say for sure, even if chances are that it's padded zeros (fingers crossed).
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Last edited by Manni; 21st March 2018 at 22:59.
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Old 21st March 2018, 23:06   #49698  |  Link
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because 8 bit 11111111 is not the same as 10 bit 1111111100 in term of top brightness 1111111111 has the same brightness.
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Old 21st March 2018, 23:13   #49699  |  Link
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I simply don't understand what you imagine it might be doing? Making up non-zero values? There is only one data point, you cannot interpolate with one point. I suppose the driver could add noise?

Edit: Ah, true huhn. So maybe they strech the range 000000000000-111111111100 to 000000000000-111111111111, with dithering, which would be odd but possible.
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Old 21st March 2018, 23:23   #49700  |  Link
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There is actually a bit of a trick when extending the bitdepth of a full range signal, you fill the new bits with the leading bits of the pixel, ie. like this for 8 to 10-bit:

- You shift to 10-bit first, which adds two empty bits.
- Then you fill those empty bits with the top bits from the original signal

Code:
  1111111100
+         11111111
= 1111111111
This has several good properties, namely:
- All 1 also remains all 1, ie. maximum 8-bit (255) remains maximum 10-bit (1023)
- Zero also remains zero
- Its easy and fast

I can't say that this is what its doing, but it is generally regarded as producing a more faithful signal when increasing bitdepth then plain zero padding, and a full stretch from 0-255 to 0-1023 is computationally rather expensive.

Note that this does not apply when you are dealing with limited range (ie. 16-235), because 16 and 235 map to the limited-range 10-bit values exactly when you simply shift them up (ie. 64 to 940)
But when handling full-range signals like RGB, plain zero padding is not entirely accurate.
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