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Old 28th April 2014, 18:31   #26281  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I see judder with it. Hard to describe it, a little bit like ghosting. And not just with camera pans, also with moving objects (also on plasma).
Everything below 30fps can't look smooth by definition.
Because of something called Eye-Tracking Motion Blur when you watch any sample-and-hold screen (LCD & OLED).
Read about it: Here
This kind of blur happens when your brain expects the image/object to be in a different place (in motion) while the image is still in the last place.
Its in your brain.

Shorter draw distance between a moving object (frame interpolation) can decrease this greatly.
Flickering the image for a fraction of a second (1-2 ms) like a CRT, can eliminate this kind of blur completely (for your brain).
Black Frame Insertion (BFI) tries to emulate that by shortening the displayed image time by substituting the rest of the same frame with black frames (ie: 240 Hz TV playing 24p content will show 1 frame of the film and 9 frames of black, for each movie frame).

Quote:
Not relevant to video rendering at all.
True.
As long as the Audio & Video are synced, I don't mind few seconds of lag at all.
Do you know the lag of a stand alone Blu-Ray player...? it can be anything.

EDIT:
@neuron2
Sorry about that, You posted while I was typing.
Although I think this conversation is about: Frame Interpolation would be great as part of madvr.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 28th April 2014 at 18:34.
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Old 28th April 2014, 18:38   #26282  |  Link
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It's well known that I don't accept feature requests at the moment. Also frame interpolation was already discussed multiple times in the past. So I agree with neuron2. Please discuss frame interpolation in a new thread, if you must. Thanks, guys.
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Old 28th April 2014, 19:16   #26283  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarinka View Post
Hmm, maybe that's not a bad idea for a feature request, to have a switch that would tell madvr to avoid scaling factors very close to 1.0x (1916 -> 1920 etc...) and just pad with black bars instead.
Something like this is my short term to do list, already, together with some related changes/improvements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truexfan81 View Post
i just did a test, i set it back to 60hz all is fine, i set madvr to change it to 1080p59 it has the same problem. In previous madvr versions this used to work, not really sure when that was broken, but the reason for trying to use 1080p59 is to remove judder without the blur caused by smooth motion.
Could you please double check by going back to older madVR versions? It would be quite surprising to me if this was really a new issue. I think you'll find that the same problem will also occur with older madVR versions, because I think the issue's probably got nothing to do with madVR, but probably your refresh rate is simply too low. But I'm just guessing here. Maybe I'm wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
I'm not sure I understand your take here. The whole reason to use decimation on 720p59.94 videos is to play it back at it's original frame rate of 23.976. [...]

I don't see why you would want to use IVTC on true 59/60 fps content like sports, that doesn't even make any sense. It's supposed to be played back at that frame rate because it was filmed that way.
Take a step back and look at the bigger picture, in this case usability: Ideally you want to just playback some content without having to worry about which cadence it has. It should be madVR's job, only, to worry about such things. Why would you have to force madVR into film mode? Why does madVR not detect such things itself and switch everything around accordingly? The reason for that is that I've simply not implemented film vs video detection for interlaced content yet. But at some point I plan to.

Now let's look at 720p50/60 content: For this I don't have to detect film vs. video, I just have to detect the underlying cadence and that already tells me everything I need to do. So decimating 720p50/60 content is much easier than handling unknown interlaced content.

Basically, madVR could already be able *right now* to automatically handle any 720p50/60 content and decimate whatever needs to be decimated. So you could enable madVR decimation for progressive content and you'd never ever have to disable it again. E.g. consider watching TV broadcasts in real time: There'll be a movie (3:2 frame cadence), then there'll be some ads (maybe 3:2, or 2:2, or 1:1 frame cadence). madVR's cadence detection should auto detect all that and can then throw away just the duplicate frames. The nice thing is that everything could be done automatically.

However, here comes the catch: There's a chance that the cadence could change back and forth multiple times in a short time period, e.g. from one advertisement spot to the next. We do not really want madVR to switch refresh rates all the time when that happens, do we? So running at 60Hz makes some sense because it can handle any cadence, and smooth motion takes take of 3:2 content, too.

Of course I understand that if you know for a fact that your content is really film only, and every part of it is 3:2 cadence, then there's no need to use 60Hz and you can simply use 23Hz instead. But this once again requires your input: You need to tell madVR that you know that the content is straight 23Hz all the way through. Maybe I should add an option for that. But for the majority of users, letting madVR do everything automatically is preferable, and that's why currently I'm staying at 60Hz.

Anyway, that's just the current situation. I've some ideas for future builds. At the moment I've just implemented 720p50/60 decimation for the first time, so please just test whether it generally works, report bugs/problems you find, and please live for now with whatever shortcomings there might be. Once we've ironed out whatever bugs there might be, maybe I'll polish the whole thing to make everyone happy.

(I don't want any suggestions/ideas at this point, just bug reports or confirmations that everything works as expected within the limits of the current implementation.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Here's a clip that glitches while seeking and from the start: http://www.mediafire.com/download/5f...int%3Dfilm.mpg it's reproducable most of the time, just jump around. If SM is off it doesn't happen at 60hz. At 48 and 50hz the glitches happen at 72 and 75 the glitches don't happen.
Is there already a bug entry in the tracker for this? If not, could you please create one? I don't have time for madVR at the moment. So this problem will get lost and forgotten if you don't add it to the tracker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post
This anime clip (One Piece #444) is 1440x1080i59, obviously 2:2 cadence. When I press Ctrl+Shift+Alt+T twice (or add the tag "deint=ivtc"), the desktop refresh rate changes to 23Hz, resulting in lots of dropped frames. (The list of display modes is "1080p60, 1080p59, 1080p50, 1080p30, 1080p29, 1080p25, 1080p24, 1080p23", all of them are supported in my display.) So I have to add both tags "deint=ivtc" and "refreshRate=29".
Euwwh, why don't you use mediafire? I refuse to login to be able to download something.

Anyway, currently madVR's forced film mode is somewhat stupid in that it doesn't switch refresh rates based on the detected cadence. Implementing refresh rate switching based on detected cadence would be possible, but difficult, because the cadence can change all the time and we don't want the refresh rate to change all the time. I have some ideas on how to maybe solve this in the future, but for now forcing film mode on always naively switches to 23Hz. That's a known limitation of the current forced film mode implementation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
AFAIK its not limited to decimating to 24p, it can handle various patterns - it previously just encountered a few issues if it has to decimate way too many frames (ie. to 24p from 60p).
FWIW, decimation is not as flexible as it could be. In theory I could throw any duplicate fields away, but I'm a bit afraid of that. E.g. if I detect 5:5 I just decimate that to 4:4. That works fine for 23Hz playback. If I decimated 5:5 to 2:2 it could introduce severe motion stuttering if the cadence detection happens to be incorrect. It's possible (although it shouldn't happen) that a 3:2 cadence is misdetected as 5:5. Because of that I'm playing safe and just remove the fields I have to remove to get down to 23Hz. This is also the reason why decimation for progressive content (60p -> 23p) didn't work correctly. I've now implemented support just for decimating 6:4 -> 3:2 with 60p sources, and 4:4 -> 2:2 with 50p sources. Anything other than that still doesn't decimate all duplicate fields for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicolasRobidoux View Post
(I am sure you are busy with other things, so I don't necessarily expect anything to happen as a result of what follows.)

The current madVR Jinc4 (which I believe has a "deblur" set more or less like madVR's Jinc3) is a rather ordinary scheme compared to Jinc3.

The exceptional 4-lobe Jinc scheme is the one I've been calling EWA LanczosSharpest, and last showed off in the context of pixel art resampling. It is only different from what you do already in the "deblur" that defines it, which is smaller and consequently makes it use a smaller disc. In other words, the better Jinc4 is actually a cheaper scheme than what I understand you are using now.

In ImageMagick notation, it is defined by

-define filter:blur=0.88451002338585141

which I would guess could be accomplished a minor modification of madVR, and would provide a Jinc4 different from Jinc3 in a worthwhile way.
Thanks, I'll have a look at this when I find some time. At the moment I'm busy with my commercial projects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
seidweise over on the KCP Codec forum put out a program that detects OpenCL on systems. Looks like AMD and Intel have the lead over Nvidia when it comes to the OpenCL version implemented on their devices.
That's no new information. Every developer knows this. Nothing to see here, move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnniedoo View Post
I have just noticed that I am getting significant 'presentation glitches after I switch from 'forced film' 24hz refresh on monitor and smooth motion on
If i disable auto detect , I get multiple dropped frames in the forced movie (or video) option and , of course, it forces the monitor to be in 24hz for the old movies i tend to watch.
i check all the movies/videos i watch with 'media info' f for whatever info i can get on whether it is interlaced or not and never really sure on the fps listed
when i watch these old movies -usually either isos i made from dvd mpg-2 some are interleaved, some are listed as progressive and all of that is still pretty mysterious to me, but play back and the de interlace option may become necessary . i often uncheck the madvr deinterlace all together or use the disable if not sure
I use ffdshow external filters as they have worked best for m y overall movie/video preferences and use the latest available from source forge and de interlace there when needed.
If i watch this type of movie in forced movie i get all kinds of frame drops, if i keep the auto detect enabled, and put the refresh rate to 60hz i get a fine picture, more or less with some blur with the smooth motion but 3-6frames adding to the presentation glitch tally as i keep the control+J osd on for these changes.
the frame drops are quite noticeable if i leave force movie w/24refresh. which also is forced on my monitor when checked. at least as i have things configured all down the line. i use reclock sometimes and the 'treat 25 as 24fps' checked for reclock and uncheck it if i opt out of reclock to find best way to watch.
profiles are fine however way too much for all the different movies, i would have to start to make individual profiles for individual movies and then not be able to keep track of which is which since many of these old movies are from public domain and in all kinds of different formats.
I seem to have most issues with the mpeg-2 from iso
and the 'streaming video' mp4, mpeg4 , wmv are ok though the avi divx are often glitchy , too in mpc-be/mad vr.
use plenty of gpu resources , or can, if i do not alter options for each movie/video. this combo does, in most cases, show a far better final outcome than my commercial movie players from the 2 or 3major companies. i tend to use them only in last resort.
even with 6000+'presentation glitches' and not all the way through a 58 or 64min movie the picture and lip sync are excellent.
so, i am not really sure what the glitches actually are.
i read from other posts that it may be in the ffdshow and/or mpc-be components and i do check them as well along the way. only use deinterlacing sometimes, debanding rarely and disable the 'shaders' totally other than sometimes the 'greyscale' for old avi/dvix which can have a greenish tint.
just my more recent experiences since going to 87.10
Your post is written in a way that makes it hard for me to say anything. I'm not sure if you have any specific question. Or if you expect a reply, or something. If you're worried about the presentation glitches, try disabling the "present several frames in advance" options in the "windowed mode" section of the madVR settings. Does that help? Or do you then get dropped frames instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
Madshi, can you think about making a checkbox or something to disable the EXCLUSIVE notification?
This has been asked by other users, as well, but I don't accept feature requests at the moment. I'd have to add a whole new settings section just for this, and I don't consider it important at this time. There will probably a switch for this in madVR v1.0, but probably not before...
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Old 28th April 2014, 19:19   #26284  |  Link
James Freeman
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madshi, may I ask what is considered important at this advanced stage (in comparison to other renderers) of madVR?
Because when this thread does not run on madVR testing/questions/bugs/GPU benchmark, it runs on feature requests...
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Last edited by James Freeman; 28th April 2014 at 19:23.
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Old 28th April 2014, 20:12   #26285  |  Link
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Could anybody explain me, what are these options about and when should I use them? My GPU is GeForce GT555M.
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Old 28th April 2014, 20:20   #26286  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
madshi, may I ask what is considered important at this advanced stage (in comparison to other renderers) of madVR?
Because when this thread does not run on madVR testing/questions/bugs/GPU benchmark, it runs on feature requests...
I don't really understand your question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toco View Post
Could anybody explain me, what are these options about and when should I use them? My GPU is GeForce GT555M.
These options sometimes help improving rendering performance/reliability. However, some systems have problems with these options. Especially nVidia Optimus systems used to have problems with that (not sure if that's true, anymore). So you can experiment with these to check if they improve anything for you. Or just leave them at the default settings (which is off).
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Old 28th April 2014, 21:56   #26287  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
These options sometimes help improving rendering performance/reliability. However, some systems have problems with these options. Especially nVidia Optimus systems used to have problems with that (not sure if that's true, anymore). So you can experiment with these to check if they improve anything for you. Or just leave them at the default settings (which is off).
What were the problems experienced by nVidia Optimus systems? Given I've got an Optimus system I can see if its still an issue, so Optimus users will know if its best to continue to leave them unchecked.
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Old 28th April 2014, 22:07   #26288  |  Link
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Hi,
I would like to play my 1080p MKV with MPC-HC or Potplayer (I don't really test them but it's another subject ) without any filter (resize & co).
I have a Gigabyte Brix with 2955u CPU and Intel HD Graphics, and I would like to know if there is a difference between MadVR and others like LAV Filters and FFDShow, if I don't use any filter ?
Thanks !
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Old 28th April 2014, 22:45   #26289  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Nico8583 View Post
Hi,
I would like to play my 1080p MKV with MPC-HC or Potplayer (I don't really test them but it's another subject ) without any filter (resize & co).
I have a Gigabyte Brix with 2955u CPU and Intel HD Graphics, and I would like to know if there is a difference between MadVR and others like LAV Filters and FFDShow, if I don't use any filter ?
Thanks !
MadVR is a renderer first of all you need a renderer!
you can watch things with MadVR "untouched" there are still things you have to do chroma up sampling for example.

lavfilter is a video decocder, audio decoder, splitter and can do processing deintlacing/audio mixing.
ffdshow is a audio/video decoder and a image processor.

so the difference between ffdshow/lavfilter and MadVr is that one is renderer the rest not.

if you don't use MadVR you are using something else like VMR 9 or EVR CP. but they do things that need to be done in not the best way and they are affected by the gpu driver and the GPU driver thinks playing around with videos is a cool thing...

if you want to watch your movies in the most neutral way MadVR is a very very good choice.
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Old 28th April 2014, 22:49   #26290  |  Link
DD51
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sorry newbie here...

I have just 1 single problem with MadVR that I cannot figure out why it is happening.

when watching a TV show (720p) in full view it stutters like crazy.
It is silky smooth in windowed mode (not full screen)

No other files does this.
I have to use EVR for these files to play smooth.

what am I doing wrong?
thanks in advance

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Old 28th April 2014, 23:13   #26291  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD51 View Post
sorry newbie here...

I have just 1 single problem with MadVR that I cannot figure out why it is happening.

when watching a TV show (720p) in full view it stutters like crazy.
It is silky smooth in windowed mode (not full screen)

No other files does this.
I have to use EVR for these files to play smooth.

what am I doing wrong?
thanks in advance

This happened for a couple of my files as well. I think it has to do with improper frame rate tagging on the container. You may need to remux those particular files.

Last edited by dansrfe; 28th April 2014 at 23:21.
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Old 28th April 2014, 23:47   #26292  |  Link
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* "Pause" OSD message no longer blocked

could this be made optional, please?
It displays the paused OSD at the end of playback in mpc-hc instead of just black fullscreen.
That can cause burn on plasma if left unsupervised for many hours (like falling asleep and forgetting to set the timer). MPC-HC doesn't show that paused OSD with any other renderer and probably for good reason.
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Old 28th April 2014, 23:56   #26293  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD51 View Post
sorry newbie here...

I have just 1 single problem with MadVR that I cannot figure out why it is happening.

when watching a TV show (720p) in full view it stutters like crazy.
It is silky smooth in windowed mode (not full screen)

No other files does this.
I have to use EVR for these files to play smooth.

what am I doing wrong?
thanks in advance

i guess your display is 1080p. what happen when you drag the windowed mode window bigger?

how high are the render times in fullscreen (control + j)and what type of hardware are you using?
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Old 29th April 2014, 00:13   #26294  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
Here's a clip that glitches while seeking and from the start: http://www.mediafire.com/download/5f...int%3Dfilm.mpg it's reproducable most of the time, just jump around. If SM is off it doesn't happen at 60hz. At 48 and 50hz the glitches happen at 72 and 75 the glitches don't happen.


Is there already a bug entry in the tracker for this? If not, could you please create one? I don't have time for madVR at the moment. So this problem will get lost and forgotten if you don't add it to the tracker.
There isn't, I brought it up here because of a good chance that it might be something only I'm experiencing, like so many things in the past. I'll add it to the bugtracker if others experience the same thing. Do they?

I'm also experiencing random slow motion when ivtcing 59 to 23. No dropped frames or cadence breaks and the only way to get it back to normal speed is to seek or pause/play. If I rewatch where slow motion first started it plays fine. Anyone else experiencing this?
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Last edited by turbojet; 29th April 2014 at 00:16.
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Old 29th April 2014, 00:31   #26295  |  Link
DD51
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thanks for the replies guys...

My apologies for not stating my equipment.
CPU 3570K
Display is 1080p (projector JVC RS45)
Videocard is HD7770
MadVR settings:
Chroma upscaling: NNED13 - 16 neurons
Image doubling: all ticked
Image Upscaling: Jinc 3 taps- AARF ticked and so isscale-in linear light
Image downscaling: Catmull-Rom AARF ticked only
Smooth motion: enabled - middle one selected

1080p files play super smooth no problems whatsover.
I'll try remuxing the files to see of that works.

anything else I can check?

thank you again...
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Old 29th April 2014, 00:50   #26296  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD51 View Post
thanks for the replies guys...

Image doubling: all ticked
1080p files play super smooth no problems whatsover.
I'll try remuxing the files to see of that works.

anything else I can check?

thank you again...
Having everything checked for image doubling is where I think your problem lies. Many people (including myself) automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked. Try with only the Luma double checked and see if it runs without dropped frames.

Since your default resolution of 1080 and the 1080 file match there is no doubling occurring, so that would be why you don't see it occurring with 1080 files.
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Last edited by Anime Viewer; 29th April 2014 at 01:03.
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Old 29th April 2014, 01:09   #26297  |  Link
DD51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
Having everything checked for image doubling is where I think your problem lies. Many people (including myself) automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked. Try with only the Luma double checked and see if it runs without dropped frames.

Since your default resolution of 1080 and the 1080 file match there is no doubling occurring, so that would be why you don't see it occurring with 1080 files.
OMG...thank you sooo much Anime Viewer...no more dropped frames

I cannot begin to tell you how long I've had this problem and I practically tried everything!
I guess I didn't!!!!

A super big thanks again.
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Old 29th April 2014, 02:27   #26298  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD51 View Post
OMG...thank you sooo much Anime Viewer...no more dropped frames

I cannot begin to tell you how long I've had this problem and I practically tried everything!
I guess I didn't!!!!
Are you using profiles for doubling? My profile for 1080p content uses no doubling at all, since it's unneeded unless you have a TV or other display that is larger than 1920x1080.
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Old 29th April 2014, 02:36   #26299  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD51 View Post
thanks for the replies guys...

My apologies for not stating my equipment.
CPU 3570K
Display is 1080p (projector JVC RS45)
Videocard is HD7770
MadVR settings:
Chroma upscaling: NNED13 - 16 neurons
Image doubling: all ticked
Image Upscaling: Jinc 3 taps- AARF ticked and so isscale-in linear light
Image downscaling: Catmull-Rom AARF ticked only
Smooth motion: enabled - middle one selected

1080p files play super smooth no problems whatsover.
I'll try remuxing the files to see of that works.

anything else I can check?

thank you again...
I have never seen someone recommend linear light for image upscaling but I do prefer it for downscaling. You seem to have them set backwards? AARF? You mean Anti Ringing (AR, always good)?

If you want to try doubling try it without NNEDI3 chroma scaling. I prefer Jinc3 chroma + NNEDI3 32 luma doubling to NNEDI3 16 chroma + no luma doubling (Jinc3 image) but the first does take more GPU power than the second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
Having everything checked for image doubling is where I think your problem lies. Many people (including myself) automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked. Try with only the Luma double checked and see if it runs without dropped frames.

Since your default resolution of 1080 and the 1080 file match there is no doubling occurring, so that would be why you don't see it occurring with 1080 files.
A lot of people seem to be confused how these work. It isn't that you "automatically get dropped frames when having Chroma resolution double checked" it is that chroma doubling is twice as hard as luma doubling and it all adds up (also chroma doubling doesn't help quality very much). Watch your average render times and keep them below the movie frame interval. Ctrl-J is your friend and the change in the "average render time" stat tells you the exact cost of different options with whatever resolution is currently playing. Don't simply start ticking all the NNEDI3 options; remember NNEDI3 is for punishing video cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
Are you using profiles for doubling? My profile for 1080p content uses no doubling at all, since it's unneeded unless you have a TV or other display that is larger than 1920x1080.
It wouldn't matter if you turned it on for 1080p displayed at 1080p, even if set to "always" madVR will not double if no scaling needs to be done.
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Old 29th April 2014, 04:10   #26300  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Take a step back and look at the bigger picture, in this case usability: Ideally you want to just playback some content without having to worry about which cadence it has. It should be madVR's job, only, to worry about such things. Why would you have to force madVR into film mode? Why does madVR not detect such things itself and switch everything around accordingly? The reason for that is that I've simply not implemented film vs video detection for interlaced content yet. But at some point I plan to.

Now let's look at 720p50/60 content: For this I don't have to detect film vs. video, I just have to detect the underlying cadence and that already tells me everything I need to do. So decimating 720p50/60 content is much easier than handling unknown interlaced content.

Basically, madVR could already be able *right now* to automatically handle any 720p50/60 content and decimate whatever needs to be decimated. So you could enable madVR decimation for progressive content and you'd never ever have to disable it again. E.g. consider watching TV broadcasts in real time: There'll be a movie (3:2 frame cadence), then there'll be some ads (maybe 3:2, or 2:2, or 1:1 frame cadence). madVR's cadence detection should auto detect all that and can then throw away just the duplicate frames. The nice thing is that everything could be done automatically.

However, here comes the catch: There's a chance that the cadence could change back and forth multiple times in a short time period, e.g. from one advertisement spot to the next. We do not really want madVR to switch refresh rates all the time when that happens, do we? So running at 60Hz makes some sense because it can handle any cadence, and smooth motion takes take of 3:2 content, too.

Of course I understand that if you know for a fact that your content is really film only, and every part of it is 3:2 cadence, then there's no need to use 60Hz and you can simply use 23Hz instead. But this once again requires your input: You need to tell madVR that you know that the content is straight 23Hz all the way through. Maybe I should add an option for that. But for the majority of users, letting madVR do everything automatically is preferable, and that's why currently I'm staying at 60Hz.
Ya, I'm sure once you implement film vs video detection things will be a little easier to figure out for the user. Right now I just force film on everything and switch to video mode via keyboard shortcut when I occasionally have a true interlaced video.

+1 on adding a "force film" type option for progressive content like you have for deinterlacing. All of the shows I watch already have commercials cut, so it's a 3:2 cadence the entire time.

Last edited by StinDaWg; 29th April 2014 at 04:32.
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