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Old 19th February 2020, 16:18   #58661  |  Link
tramin
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Hi, I need some advice.I have a PC with Radeon 570 and Philips OLED 804.I only watch UHD movies and at a faster scenes bothers me like the blurred outlines of figures.As if they were wrapped in bubbles.I use LAV and madVR(chroma upscaling Anti-Alias medium quality).It can be modified somehow with madVR?I don't know if I wrote it clearly,thanks.

Last edited by tramin; 19th February 2020 at 16:34.
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Old 19th February 2020, 17:37   #58662  |  Link
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OLEDs can look bad in faster scenes due to their very fast response time, there is no frame blurring. You can try smooth motion in MADVR, that does help a bit but it doesn't work for some who are using the latest 113beta. You could also try turning on a little motion interpolation, I use a very small amount on my LG OLED and it make a huge difference, although I dont really recognize your description of the issue "bubbles", for me there are jagged edges to lighter areas on fast pans., this as very much reduced with a little bit of LG's tru motion turned on, if you use too much it gets all soap opera, I use 2/10, it looks unwatchable awful anything over 4/10
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Old 19th February 2020, 21:31   #58663  |  Link
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Is madVR dead? Not that it doesn't work, but with no updates in what, two years?... it seems quite abandoned.
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Old 19th February 2020, 21:39   #58664  |  Link
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Only if you don't read...
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Old 19th February 2020, 22:31   #58665  |  Link
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Yeah you can't expect to disappear yourself for years (last post 2013) ignoring all conversation and ask a question like that.
Educate yourself.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:07   #58666  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madjock View Post
Thank you.

I still do not understand as such and for a layman like myself with no calibration equipment and the same in depth knowledge as yourselves I find it all another language.

A lot seems to be based on OLEDs, which is also something I do not have, not 100% what my real NITs is also which does not help.

edit : so do I need to output in HDR format ?

I highly recommend you buy a colorimeter, either the i1 display pro, or colormunki display, both will work identically for madvr 3dlut purposes, the i1dpro will do it a bit faster, therefore having a slight edge in accuracy, because the longer you take measurements, the less accurate it is.

It doesn't matter how good/bad the display is, without a colorimeter, the workflow is BLIND.

The computer has no idea what it's outputing, madvr has no idea, the TV has no idea, You're getting the end result of several different machines throwing darts blindly at the target, COMPOUNDING their errors one after the other.


Movies without 3Dlut correction arn't worth watching.



The problem with OLED, is that because of the burnin problems, they have to implement a bunch of Tricks to compensate, such as ABL ontop of Secret-Sauce image tuning.

This makes the display very non-linear. Even after you measure the patches, the behavior of those patches do not fully correspond to real image output.

The advantage of oled having infinity contrast, is that it always manage to deliver a picture Pop.

LCDs are much more predictabably behaved, there's less distortion to worry about.

The downside is, LCDs (VA) beyond 300nits, really start to eat into the near black details. Most of the time this isn't an issue, but when you get to the 500nit-700nit panels, those dimming zones do terrible things to the image, imo this is worse than what ABL on OLEDs do.

For me personally, locking a VA panel down to ~350-400 nits, is a good balance for accuracy, just enough black detail, and solid post calibration response.

I really like Oleds, but I had burnins and bad retention after only a month of ownership, I decided it's just not for me. I'm not walking on glass for my TV. Tvs are meant to be watched, not chain you to a bed.

LMCL LCD will rectify most of these issues, and blow away everything on the market including oleds, quarter 3 of this year.
No burnin , ~100,000:1 contrast ratio.


Specific to should you output in HDR, if the TV is fairly linear, and doesn't do weird stuff, and the calibration comes out good without anomalies, then yea.

That's the problem though, because MOST tvs do weird stuff in HDR mode. The calibration and profiling becomes problematic. This stuff messes with Madvr's assumptions about the panel.

HDR at the moment is Cart before the Horse, Neither the software nor hardware are ready. They're even implementing dynamic tonemapping relative to Room lighting. That's kind of like taking HDR and going back to SDR. Because now they're walking away from the absolute tone curve.

BT1886 looks like shit, and that's kind of what they're bringing back to HDR..
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Last edited by tp4tissue; 20th February 2020 at 09:32.
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Old 20th February 2020, 09:34   #58667  |  Link
tramin
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@mclingo : Maybe I was wrong. I am concerned with blurred outlines such as the head and face when moving more sharply.
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Old 20th February 2020, 13:17   #58668  |  Link
madjock
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@tp4tissue

Cheers. Yes I appreciate all that and it all makes sense.

The reality is when your boiler has just broken and you have warning signals appear on your car dash it drops down the list a bit.

To be honest I find it hard to justify an expense like that that will only be used very rarely as well. ignorance is bliss in some ways, also TVs in general there are so many settings that you could spend days with that/madVR settings etc etc, and you end up watching nothing. I just need to suck it up and enjoy as is.
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Old 20th February 2020, 14:36   #58669  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
@tp4tissue

Cheers. Yes I appreciate all that and it all makes sense.

The reality is when your boiler has just broken and you have warning signals appear on your car dash it drops down the list a bit.

To be honest I find it hard to justify an expense like that that will only be used very rarely as well. ignorance is bliss in some ways, also TVs in general there are so many settings that you could spend days with that/madVR settings etc etc, and you end up watching nothing. I just need to suck it up and enjoy as is.
Between all us guyzus on the doom9 forum, we know almost everything there is to know about calibrating tvs. Yea, you can spend maybe 2-3 weeks, but I'd like to think this is a fun experience, and brings you closer to the whole point of seeing the creator's intent.

The entire movie/tv industry runs calibrated, EXCEPT when it comes home, to the customer, who pay for them to do all that work.

The probe is not 1 time use, you have to retune every 300-500 hours of usage for accuracy.

You can also use the probe on your other monitors and laptops.

I want to say, you can also impress your girlfriend by calibrating her TV/laptop, buhhhh this is a very small subset of girlfriends who would be impressed by that. , nonetheless, 3DLut is madvr's greatest most powerful feature, night and day difference, once you see it, you'll never go back..

Of course then there's the conspiracy section, they don't promote calibration so people would buy new tvs every 2-3 years.

If you divide the cost of the colorimeter by the number of display calibrations you'll do on multiple panels, multiple times, it's chump change vs what you've already spent on video gear.
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Last edited by tp4tissue; 20th February 2020 at 15:06.
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Old 20th February 2020, 14:46   #58670  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tramin View Post
@mclingo : Maybe I was wrong. I am concerned with blurred outlines such as the head and face when moving more sharply.
The only display that doesn't have this problem is CRT.

Even the fastest lightboosted IPS panels still have some blurring.

We're getting there though with the latest 240hz strobed IPS iterations, but IPS image quality is disgusting and unusable for movies/tvs.

OLED's sample and hold will always produce blur. In the very distant future, theoretically, OLED can be strobed to produce a CRT like image. However it will almost certainly never be able to do this in HDR brightness range, only SDR, and we're talking very distant future on a completely different chemistry, built from completely different factories.
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Old 20th February 2020, 14:53   #58671  |  Link
mclingo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tramin View Post
@mclingo : Maybe I was wrong. I am concerned with blurred outlines such as the head and face when moving more sharply.
Hi, we are probably talking about the same thing, try what I suggested, dont worry about what other people say about these two options, its about what works for you, some people would rather sell their kids then use any frame interpolation or smoothing
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Old 20th February 2020, 15:02   #58672  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
The only display that doesn't have this problem is CRT.

Even the fastest lightboosted IPS panels still have some blurring.

We're getting there though with the latest 240hz strobed IPS iterations, but IPS image quality is disgusting and unusable for movies/tvs.

OLED's sample and hold will always produce blur. In the very distant future, theoretically, OLED can be strobed to produce a CRT like image. However it will almost certainly never be able to do this in HDR brightness range, only SDR, and we're talking very distant future on a completely different chemistry, built from completely different factories.
can you please stop this nonsense.
it's not only your under standing of eye tracking motion blur and random IPS...
or your mis judgement on patch sizes it is still recommended to sue the biggest number of patches you can handle...
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Old 20th February 2020, 15:30   #58673  |  Link
tp4tissue
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can you please stop this nonsense.
it's not only your under standing of eye tracking motion blur and random IPS...
or your mis judgement on patch sizes it is still recommended to sue the biggest number of patches you can handle...
huhn, I understand you've been on this forum a while. And you've answered questions for me, and I am grateful.

I've avoided calling you out on your BS. I say this respectfully, You don't know everything.

It is NEVER recommended to exceed 1 hour time on consumer calibration equipment, unless the 100% saturation target is anomalous, where extra patches may be necessary.

The i1dp can only do ~1500-2000 patches in that span. The longer you let it run, the less coherence the measurements have. The meter's sensor surface may also heat up too much in warmer seasons/ buildings, causing alot of measurement drift. You've personally touted and bragged about using 10,000 patches, this is mistake, you should not be doing that. Making a number go higher isn't instantly better. 10,000 patches take ~4-6 hours to complete, no consumer display or consumer meter can remain stable in that time span.

Notice pro meters are very long in shape, that's to prevent overheating, because measurements are temperature sensitive, the DISPLAYS themselves are also temperature sensitive. Consumer $200 meters do not have the repeatability of the profession $10,000 meters, they are not designed to be able to work with long measurement times.

And you've also recommended people create p3 luts, this is hugely problematic, because currently the p3 lut causes red-clipping issues on certain chemistries of Wide gamut panels, such as PFS panels. In all of these cases p3 lut should be avoided. instead create a rec2020 lut which will avoid the clipping.
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Old 20th February 2020, 15:59   #58674  |  Link
huhn
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go rewrite dispalycal is open source do now.
your p3 stuff is just hilarious the display never know about this so why would it do anything different compared to bt 709 or bt 2020 which would be created from the same readings...

there is a good reason the display and the meter in contact mode should be heated up before calibration.

i have run 10 hour calibration runs just for the fun of it and guess what the verification was stop on how could that be?
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Old 20th February 2020, 16:03   #58675  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Movies without 3Dlut correction arn't worth watching.
IMHO this kind of completely over the top remark doesn't help at all getting people interested in specialty software, picture processing, calibrating etc. This is akin to saying music isn't worth listening to unless you're using perfectly linear studio monitors and sitting in a fully treated studio-like room, which is a ridiculous idea.
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
They're even implementing dynamic tonemapping relative to Room lighting. That's kind of like taking HDR and going back to SDR. Because now they're walking away from the absolute tone curve.
BT1886 looks like shit, and that's kind of what they're bringing back to HDR..
Breaking news, most people don't watch movies in a controlled environment like that of a mastering studio or on a perfect zero-luminance-black display, and manufacturers will want to provide a better experience for those people, whether purists like it or not. Dynamic tuning of the curve depending on the type of scene and the viewing environment is much better than the static curve alterations that Samsung had been doing which were bad practice and weakened the accuracy of HDR and made other - accurate - sets look worse in shops.
This is not at all akin to going back to SDR, and the only case where Bt.1886 doesn't look better is if you're using a CRT or an OLED in a pitch black room, i.e. not at all the common situation people view movies in.
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Of course then there's the conspiracy section, they don't promote calibration so people would buy new tvs every 2-3 years.
There are many reasons why some people frequently buy a new TV, but owners being too lazy to do calibration isn't one of them.
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Old 20th February 2020, 16:03   #58676  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
go rewrite dispalycal is open source do now.
your p3 stuff is just hilarious the display never know about this so why would it do anything different compared to bt 709 or bt 2020 which would be created from the same readings...

there is a good reason the display and the meter in contact mode should be heated up before calibration.

i have run 10 hour calibration runs just for the fun of it and guess what the verification was stop on how could that be?
Because you fundamentally misunderstand how the measurement and corrections work.

These are NOT precision instruments. the i1dp, as good as it is, it's the Harbor Freight caliper of the colorimeter world.

The clipping issue isn't a matter of gamut difference/coverage, it's a matter of software. Depending on the angle of the primaries, the software algorithm in this case argyll, or madvr, in conjunction is causing the red clipping problem. This problem varies depending on the chemistry of the panel.

The readouts from the meter are also Relative metrics, they're not absolutes.
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Old 20th February 2020, 16:14   #58677  |  Link
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ok i'm misunderstanding verification.

and it's not common practise to use an expensive spectrometer to calibrate a cheap colorimeter to do the job with it?

and just because a i1d3 has deltas in the 2 and variance between models that doesn't mean they read the same color differently because they are very stable that's why a correction is so tiny 4 patches because they for our use they are precision instruments.
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Old 20th February 2020, 16:15   #58678  |  Link
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Hiya, anyone know if there is a workaround for smooth motion crash with 113 beta, sure this was discussed at some point point searching doesnt seem to reveal anything.
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Old 20th February 2020, 16:17   #58679  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
music isn't worth listening to unless you're using perfectly linear studio monitors and sitting in a fully treated studio-like room
I agree with this assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
most people don't watch movies in a controlled environment like that of a mastering studio or on a perfect zero-luminance-black display
You misunderstand what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the workflow being BLIND. It's impossible to produce a perfect display for everyone, but at the moment, it's a Blind seeing eye dog, leading the blind guy, and he gets hit by a bus. That's what happens when you don't have calibration in the workflow. All i'm advocating for is a non-blind seeing eye dog, he can have 3 legs for all I care, but you've got to have this dog @ at least this level of NON-blindness. hahahaha
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This is not at all akin to going back to SDR, and the only case where Bt.1886 doesn't look better is if you're using a CRT or an OLED in a pitch black room,
BT1886 being shit is the assertion of color professionals. Even pro color house light illusion recommends against it.

Movies SHOULD be watched in a black room. They were created in a black room, they should be watched in one. Let the darkness consume you.
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Old 20th February 2020, 16:19   #58680  |  Link
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if bt 1886 is "whatever" then gamma 2.4 is the same?
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