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Old 27th September 2018, 15:08   #52761  |  Link
mclingo
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Ah, the good old "It's not the Oleds fault when compressed content looks bad" .......

seriously, i've had this discussion too many times over the 3 years i've had my panel, I have no issues that arent on the source, and i'm not prepared to waste any more time looking for issues that just arent there. Maybe i've been lucky and you've been unlucky with your panels, really sorry if this is the case but I have two other mates with B7's and they also reported zero issues.

if the panel is so bad why dont you exchange it?
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:19   #52762  |  Link
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Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
Hi guys,
When I have tried HDR-SDR on my LG OLED 2017 tv, the picture is much too dark ?
Is there something I am doing wrong or should I only use HDR Passthrough ?
If you have a HDR TV (which 2017 LG OLED is) why on earth would you want to do a HDR to SDR conversion?
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:25   #52763  |  Link
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Originally Posted by famasfilms View Post
"Make sure you enable Deep Color on that HDMI input, because my E6 does UHD at 23.976 / 24 on the PC label. However, PC label absolutely ruins HDR on the LG E6, locks settings, and makes it look washed out. You also cannot get 4:4:4 without using the "PC" label. So if you are using the display as both a desktop monitor and an HTPC, gotta switch between PC mode and non-PC mode depending on HDR. It sucks, shame on LG for never fixing it. "

So I guess you could leave it on Home Theatre if all you do is watch video's, but my PC is not just a HTPC
I have the 2015 LG55EG920V and I don't have this problem, it is constantly on PC mode and HDR looks very good. MadVR switches it on and off (when it should) and PC, xbox / PS4 and UHD player (Samsung) are all connected via my AVR SR6010 .

I don't recognize these problems , but I will check if Home Theater would be an improvement...
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:27   #52764  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
If you have a HDR TV (which 2017 LG OLED is) why on earth would you want to do a HDR to SDR conversion?
Perhaps he doesn't like the TV's choice for rollof...BT.2390 was out just recently AFAIK...
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:49   #52765  |  Link
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Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
Hi guys,
When I have tried HDR-SDR on my LG OLED 2017 tv, the picture is much too dark ?
Is there something I am doing wrong or should I only use HDR Passthrough ?
Try cranking up the brightness of SDR mode and increasing the target nits.

The gamma value set in "this display is already calibrated" (I'm guessing it is the default 2.20) might also be crushing black. I would experiment with that after changing the brightness of the display. I've gotten the best results with gamma 2.40. You could also try the other way and use gamma 2.00.

If you set the target nits to 480 nits, you get a neutral reference white (100 nits) without compression. This would mean your display would have to be 480 nits or so to avoid the most unwanted compression.

Basically, make your SDR calibration brighter so HDR content has room to breathe.
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:54   #52766  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Why do people keep buying the LG OLEDs when Pana and Sony based on reviews appear to make better displays? =/
Panasonic no longer sells panels in the US. I would have bought one in a heartbeat as I love my Panny plasma. Sony until recently had some issues that were finally fixed in firmware updates. And finally, I got my C8 for a price that can't be beat. That's the short answer in my case.
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Old 27th September 2018, 15:56   #52767  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
If one checks measurements such as these: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8#comparison_1675, it's pretty clear that the peak brighness varies immensely according to the zone to be displayed at high nits, due to ABL. As such, and given the current single value input available, I doubt that madVR can provide a better tone mapping results than the internal system in an OLED screen. Am I wrong/missing something? Is there a chance we could have a more flexible configuration for the target peak nits, in order to better serve OLED screens?

Thanks for reading and for answers. And thanks forever to madshi for all he does for us HTPC lovers.
The variable brightness capabilities of a display would mean the display would be better at adjusting its tone mapping to handle different content. It might also only measure the brightest pixel to set its tone curve for each video. Most displays that have a fixed tone curve won't clip, even if the input is below the display capabilities, so they always measure the input against the display curve and determine if the pixel should be tone mapped (reduced in brightness).

The only working PQ pre-tone mapping feature that I know of uses presets of 500 nits, 1,000 nits and 1,500 nits. An OLED is supposed to select 1,000 nits. If it is actually 700-800 nits, the pre-tone mapping is just reducing the brightness of the input for about 20% of the HDR titles out there. So it isn't really that useful unless your display clips at the top rather than tone maps. All the new OLEDs also use dynamic tone mapping and shouldn't need help from madVR unless HDR -> SDR is used.
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Old 27th September 2018, 16:35   #52768  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Why do people keep buying the LG OLEDs when Pana and Sony based on reviews appear to make better displays? =/
Only LG manufactures these Oled panels. So even if I buy a Sony that doesn't necessarily mean that it solves my issues and if it doesn't then I would've wasted like 1K that the Sony costs more.
Also I didn't know anything about this problem when I bought the LG because usually all you read on forums is "it's a source problem".
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Old 27th September 2018, 16:47   #52769  |  Link
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if you read the reviews on OLEDs there is very little difference in PQ across all ranges as they are all the same panel tech, differences are mainly motion related.
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Old 27th September 2018, 16:55   #52770  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
^ make sure the black level on your tv is set to High during HDR playback. Does SDR playback as it should?
Yes, SDR is OK.

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Originally Posted by mrmarioman View Post
Have you tried using Windows' HDR (enabling HDR in Windows' settings) instead of using Nvidia? I'm also having problems with Nvidia but it looks fine fine with Windows. You might want to try it to discard other things.
I remember I had problems with HDR when controlled by Windows, but probably things improved, I will give it a try.

In any case I am starting to think that the problem is that the GTX 970 does not support HEVC 10-bit. LAV works is software and I guess it is somehow reducing the quality of the image to handle the workload.
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Old 27th September 2018, 17:11   #52771  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ccrys View Post
I want to upscale 1080p bluray content to 2160 but I don't see image improvement. I have 4k 55" screen tv and 2.3m distance.

I tried with Bluray Season 2 of GOT with different NGU settings.

Can someone recommand me some settings for GTX1060 6 gb?
In my experience, there's no one configuration that always works. NGU Sharp usually works well for me, but not for certain older movies with a lot of grain, for example. Sometimes just switching to NGU AA is enough, other times I need to do a fair amount of tweaking with the processing tools to reduce the sharpness without losing the grain. Sometimes I have to do this on a movie-by-movie basis.

I think you'll just have to experiment with settings to get the best quality picture on your particular TV at the distance you're watching at, and accept the fact that certain sources don't lend themselves to a lot of improvement.
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Old 27th September 2018, 17:14   #52772  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
If you have a HDR TV (which 2017 LG OLED is) why on earth would you want to do a HDR to SDR conversion?
Yeah.You're exactly correct.In general if one has a TV set with HDR at hand,that person doesn't want likely to do such the conversion of HDR to SDR.Because such the conversion will make HDR existence meaningless unless that persion has just an earlier SDR TV set at hand.Anyway I think the algorithm 'process HDR by using pixel shader math' is very very important in madVR because the algorithm may be the most powerful weapon that madVR will improve HDR image quality in the future

Last edited by suanm; 27th September 2018 at 17:18.
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Old 27th September 2018, 17:16   #52773  |  Link
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Only LG manufactures these Oled panels. So even if I buy a Sony that doesn't necessarily mean that it solves my issues and if it doesn't then I would've wasted like 1K that the Sony costs more.
Also I didn't know anything about this problem when I bought the LG because usually all you read on forums is "it's a source problem".
because the most significant issues come from the very flawed processing from LG.

there is more than one example with the exact same frame where the LG utterly failed.
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Old 27th September 2018, 20:25   #52774  |  Link
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Ah, the good old "It's not the Oleds fault when compressed content looks bad" theory, that gets posted whenever someone complains about near-black artifacting issues on forums...
Not true, at least not when it comes to LG Oleds.
My 2016 C6 had very poor near black gradation and came out of black way to fast and there was no way to really fix this.

Now my 2018 C8 is very different. Near-blacks have smoother gradation and it doesn't come out of black so fast. Test pattern usually look pretty good.

But then why does this thing show terrible macroblocking/artifacting/flashing near-blacks in certain scenes??

Here is what's happening on 2018 LG Oleds (2017 probably too but I never owned one):
The way they implemented the better near-blacks seems to be a comrpomise. On a still image that is not moving everything looks fine, also test pattern usually look fine.

If I play such a scene that shows ugly macroblocking or flashing near-blacks and pause it, all the macroblocks and ugliness suddenly vanishes. If I hit play it appears again...
Now lets pause the scene (picture looking good) and use mpc-hc's pan&scan move function bound to keyboard keys to shift the picture around. What's happening now is that every time the picture shifts some of the near-blacks including macroblocks that were barely visible before flash up for like a split second, making it look really ugly. If I display the picture in a borderless window and move it around with my mouse parts of it begin to glow.

This effect doesn't show up in every near-black scene, far from it. Neutral gray is fine, it seems only certain colored near-blacks are affected, some more than others and that's why the flashing near-blacks effect doesn't show up in every scene. This issue is also present with high quality content like UHD Blu-ray but much more subtle. The reason for that I think is that on high quality content there usually aren't any rapidly changing larger areas of the same color like macroblocks. Though on scene changes and fade to blacks I can sometimes see it flash up and also during camera pans the edges of objects sometimes start glowing or some parts of the picture are flickering.
It's really weird as it seems like this effect only shows up when specific near-black colored pixels change to other specific colors and that's why only certain scenes are affected. It's kinda like the pixels are getting too much voltage to get them started and then they calm down.


Increasing the brightness on the TV to a certain point completely fixes this problem but it induces black glow and also makes the near-black gradation worse. I guess a lot of people who don't watch in a dark room do that anyway, as they don't care about black no longer being true black. Since there is such a big panel to panel variance on Oleds, some might even have some panel glow at default brightness and those will probably never experience this problem. Setting color on the TV to 0 also fixes this, which makes sense as from my observations only certain colored near-blacks are causing this.

When I first noticed this I thought it must be a defective TV but on the other hand I've found quite a few posts on forums where people reported similar issues but no one ever seems to really investigate this and then people jump in and tell the "Oled is so good it shows every flaw in content" myth...

So I requested a panel replacement from LG, not only for the here explained issue but also due to vertical banding and they agreed to it. When the technician arrived I showed him the flashing near-blacks issue and he immediately said that he has seen this problem on a lot of Oleds and he doesn't think a new panel would fix this and he also couldn't really explain why this is happening. He still agreed to install the new panel though.
It didn't fix the problem, it still showed during the exact same scenes as with the old panel, though the vertical banding is a bit better. What I also noticed is there seems to be a huge panel variance regarding the low end. The new panel is much darker on everything below 10% and has some heavy black crush. So comparing settings on Oled seems to be really pointless with such a variance from panel to panel.


Here are 3 screenshots if anybody wants to test this on their 2017 or 2018 oled. 2016s didn't have this problem, they had poor near-blacks from the get go even without the picture moving.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...tx?usp=sharing

To test this you need to shift the pictures around. Mpc-hc has controls for that (set them to keyboard shortcuts), or display it in a borderless window on a completely black desktop and move it around with the mouse or use the TVs live zoom to zoom in and pan the picture around.
Best to do this in a dark room at default TV brightness, technicolor default preset. Just make sure to have set the correct video levels. Also disable any madVR picture enhancements for testing.
As there is quite a big panel to panel variance I'm not sure if this test will even show the problem on every 2017+ Oled because slight changes in settings can make it better or even fix it in one scene but then make it worse in another.
Also some panels might be more prone to this than others, or might require different colored near-blacks to cause the issue.
The only thing that really seemed to fix it on both of my panels was to turn color to 0 or to increase brightness, making near-blacks brighter but this also results in black glow and worse gradation, so not really a good option.
Notice how @mclingo defence of OLED was based on him having MadVR and using settings to improve PQ.

As a % of people that watch movies, whether bluray, 4k discs, streaming, cable or torrents, how many do we think use MadVR 1%? Surely less than 1% lol

I also find it funny as Mclingo is/was very active on AVforums and everytime a new LG OLED TV is released that forum cries out for "SLIDES SLIDES" louder than a deprived smack addict, all so they can evaluate whether the near black performance is improved on last years
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Old 27th September 2018, 21:02   #52775  |  Link
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Anyone try 411.70 yet to see if the HDR issues have been resolved? I'm downloading it now.

EDIT: Nope....still a broken mess for HDR. How nice. Back to 399 I go.
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Last edited by SamuriHL; 27th September 2018 at 22:30.
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Old 27th September 2018, 22:52   #52776  |  Link
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Originally Posted by famasfilms View Post
Notice how @mclingo defence of OLED was based on him having MadVR and using settings to improve PQ.

As a % of people that watch movies, whether bluray, 4k discs, streaming, cable or torrents, how many do we think use MadVR 1%? Surely less than 1% lol

I also find it funny as Mclingo is/was very active on AVforums and everytime a new LG OLED TV is released that forum cries out for "SLIDES SLIDES" louder than a deprived smack addict, all so they can evaluate whether the near black performance is improved on last years
When did it become appropriate on here to suggest people were smack addicts?


firstly - as I stated very clearly I use MADVR to resolve macro blocking souce problems, not to correct inherent problems with my TV.

Secondly - slides requests on AVFORUMS were for the evaluation of near black banding bars around 5%, this is still common on all OLEDs and something lots of people are interested in as this shows people the progress LG are making on all panels to improve this. Anyone who has an OLED or is intending to invest in one should care about this because its OLEDs main problem, if you want to know you've got a good panel you have to look at your 5% black slide, rock science this isnt.


These near black bars have nothing whatsoever to do with the near black macroblocking issues which were being discussed, no idea why you felt the need to bring any of that up.
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Old 27th September 2018, 23:05   #52777  |  Link
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famasfilms could you avoid quoting entire posts that large please? You can edit them down to particular sentences. You quoted about five times more than what you wrote.

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Originally Posted by famasfilms View Post
everytime a new LG OLED TV is released that forum cries out for "SLIDES SLIDES" louder than a deprived smack addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
When did it become appropriate on here to suggest people were smack addicts?
This wasn't directed at anyone personally and nothing was suggested, it's a comparison for effect.

Last edited by ryrynz; 27th September 2018 at 23:17.
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Old 27th September 2018, 23:09   #52778  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Madshi, any chance you could send a dummy load to the GPU when resuming playback so the clock ramps up before the playback starts? Should hopefully fix that second or so of stuttering.
It would make more sense to directly allow madVR to modify/set the GPU clocks. Not planned soon, though.

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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
Just to see if I understood things discussed in the last few pages correctly... (I currently still use a Kuro plasma, so I can't test HDR).

madVR offers the option to tone map HDR. This is of great use for people with projectors, as those are quite limited in the amount of nits they can produce.
OLEDs could benefit as well, as they are less capable than LCDs in this regard (nits produced), but, at least for LGs, there's no way to deactivate internal HDR tonemapping without going SDR (thus limiting panel light output below HDR requirements).

Correct so far?
No, because you *can* test HDR on your Kuro, by using madVR's HDR -> SDR conversion.

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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
madshi states that TVs are not "smart" enough to deactivate their internal tonemapping routines. What I don't understand is: if madVR already outputs a tone mapped picture and the user has inputted correct peak brightness values for their TV... what would the TV tone map for? Am I correct in assuming that the problem stems from OLED not having a peak brightness "per se" but a peak brighness depending on highlights size?
First of all, I never stated that *all* TVs are not smart enough, I'm usually careful enough to talk about "many" or "most" TVs. There may be TVs which are smart enough. Maybe the latest Panasonic OLED could be, I don't know.

If the TV is not smart enough, it will simply apply a compression curve to every pixel. If madVR has already applied tone mapping before, that means the TV will compress the content even further. It might not be a dramatic problem, but it's far from optimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
If one checks measurements such as these: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8#comparison_1675, it's pretty clear that the peak brighness varies immensely according to the zone to be displayed at high nits, due to ABL. As such, and given the current single value input available, I doubt that madVR can provide a better tone mapping results than the internal system in an OLED screen. Am I wrong/missing something? Is there a chance we could have a more flexible configuration for the target peak nits, in order to better serve OLED screens?
What does ABL have to do with tone mapping? I don't think that the tone mapping algo in the OLED TVs is smart enough to consider ABL. As such, there's no reason to think that madVR couldn't provide a better tone mapping result than the internal system.

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Originally Posted by gxcare View Post
I have problem rendering HDR content with my configuration:

The images look darker than they should be, also in the screen snapshots. Playing the same files from the TV player they are much better.
Can you post a photo of such a dark image, and of what your TV player shows, so we can compare both? Which "target peak nits" value are you using in your madVR display setup? Try lowering that value to get brighter images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectal Prolapse View Post
madshi, thanks for 0.92.16 - the HDR -> SDR conversion is excellent - I tested the UHD-BD of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, the wizard duel at the end. The highlights are no longer clipped!


Quote:
Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
When I have tried HDR-SDR on my LG OLED 2017 tv, the picture is much too dark ?
Is there something I am doing wrong or should I only use HDR Passthrough ?
Which "target peak nits" value are you using in your madVR display setup? Try lowering that value to get brighter images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
If you have a HDR TV (which 2017 LG OLED is) why on earth would you want to do a HDR to SDR conversion?
You don't seem to understand the whole tone mapping concept. What do you think the 2017 LG OLED does internally when you feed it HDR? In case you don't know: It applies tone mapping! Same as what madVR does when you activate HDR -> SDR conversion.

Probably I should rename the options in madVR, because they seem to be confusing for users. People seem to think that HDR TVs can somehow do magic, and letting madVR convert HDR to SDR will produce worse results than if the HDR TV receives the full HDR content. In reality the HDR TV will do the same processing madVR does - only in worse quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suanm View Post
Yeah.You're exactly correct.In general if one has a TV set with HDR at hand,that person doesn't want likely to do such the conversion of HDR to SDR.Because such the conversion will make HDR existence meaningless
Not true. See my reply to Razoola.
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Old 27th September 2018, 23:11   #52779  |  Link
madshi
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XySubFilter 3.1.0.751 released

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...85#post1853085

All XySubFilter users please give this build a try. If you run into any (new) problems, please report them in the XySubFilter thread.
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Old 27th September 2018, 23:31   #52780  |  Link
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[QUOTE=

I also find it funny as Mclingo is/was very active on AVforums and everytime a new LG OLED TV is released that forum cries out for "SLIDES S.........[/QUOTE]


here look at my recently activity..... hmmm.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-...47799/page-121

next time you need help on the smack heads forum dont bother asking.
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