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Old 14th October 2018, 13:22   #27841  |  Link
jdobbs
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True, since BDRB won't read in VOB files directly.
Yes it will via "Import DVD".
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Old 14th October 2018, 13:27   #27842  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
A thought:
Code:
Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : Main@Main
Format settings                          : CustomMatrix / BVOP
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : Variable
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG2
Codec ID/Info                            : MPEG 1 or 2 Video
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 4 210 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 9 800 kb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Original display aspect ratio            : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Variable
Original frame rate                      : 23.976 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Scan order                               : 2:3 Pulldown
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Time code of first frame                 : 01:00:00;00
Time code source                         : Group of pictures header
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
When the items in RED exist, ignore what is in BLUE and just copy the MPEG-2 file without mucking with it. Or better yet, remove the 2:3 pulldown flags and output it as 23.976p, which is what I really want. But, the BD book that I have indicates that 480p23.976 is not legal.

Experiment Update: I took one of the files and ran it thru TSMuxer and set it to remove the pulldown and then ran that thru BDRB. BDRB left it alone. I then played it on my Samsung BD player and it did not care that it was 480p23.976. As that violates the BD spec, BDRB will never do what I did. That said, The issues discovered still need to be resolved, as other users may have come across this problem.
No. BD-RB actually looks at the PTS of all the frames to make sure MEDIAINFO is right. If it says the framerate is variable -- it is variable.

BTW: BD-RB will do what you said it won't (remove the pulldown flags and keep intact)... you just have to make sure you use the proper settings. I've mentioned numerous times in this thread that 720x480@23.976fps isn't a part of the standard -- but is supported by every player so I allow it. In fact, since you said "...and then ran it through BDRB. BDRB left it alone.", I guess that is self evident. Of course, on most players you can leave the pulldown flags in and the player has the ability to playback at the original FILM rate anyway.

I'll download your sources and check it out. I think I may know what change I made that caused BD-RB to misinterpret the source aspect on your 720x480 source. Not sure though.

The file import module (especially for 720x480) has become really convoluted from all the "adjustments" I have made for the stupid things people do when they reencode and post video files. I just ran into one the other day where someone wanted to keep a 4:3 source at a standard 720x480 resolution -- so they resized the picture to 640x480 and added black borders. Tell me how I'm supposed to adjust for that...
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Old 14th October 2018, 15:11   #27843  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
Yes it will via "Import DVD".
Doesn't help when trying to mix DVD content with MKV content, i.e., "Video Files."

That said, the way some DVDs get authored results in a piece of video that you want being contained within a multi-part VOB. Hence the use of DVDFab to extract content based upon the "title." This particular DVD had the special features in their only VOB. Can't count on that with every DVD.
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Old 14th October 2018, 15:22   #27844  |  Link
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@MrVideo

The problem isn't BD-RB. It's the output file from DVDFab. It is definitely variable framerate -- in the example you gave me there are over 1,000 instances where timecodes indicate missing frames (or other anomalies) in the source. When BD-RB looks at the timecodes and sees that the source is VFR, it then looks to see what the minimum distance is between frames -- so it can determine the true original framerate. There is at least one frame in this source where the timecode difference is zero. Since there is no "infinite" framerate, BD-RB selects the next best framerate, which happened to be 59.97. Even when I tell it to ignore zero deltas between frames, it still finds a distance that would be consistent with 29.97 rather than 23.976.

So... the bottom line is: don't create MKVs using DVDFab if you want to import into BD-RB.
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Old 14th October 2018, 15:27   #27845  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
Doesn't help when trying to mix DVD content with MKV content, i.e., "Video Files."

That said, the way some DVDs get authored results in a piece of video that you want being contained within a multi-part VOB. Hence the use of DVDFab to extract content based upon the "title." This particular DVD had the special features in their only VOB. Can't count on that with every DVD.
In that case, import from DVD, and then create an MKV using BD-RB (with intact audio and intact video). BD-RB handles video titles correctly across VOBs. Then you can import all the MKVs together.

You'd just import the DVD, and then select the playlists you want to output to ALTERNATE.

BD-RB also has the advantage of importing multiple DVDs in a single import -- so, for example, you could import an entire season of a series (across 10 DVDs) into a single BD structure, and then, using the multiple batch function, create mkvs from all of them with just a few mouse clicks. I do that all the time. You can also set the minimum time variable, so extraneous material will be ignored.
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Old 14th October 2018, 15:50   #27846  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
No. BD-RB actually looks at the PTS of all the frames to make sure MEDIAINFO is right. If it says the framerate is variable -- it is variable.
Just what is considered variable? Nobody, that I know of, encodes MPEG-2 video for DVD other than at 29.97 fps, or 23.976 fps with pulldown flags for 29.97 output. In the sample that I've made available, the true fps is supposedly 23.976. When I have TSMuxer remove the pulldown flags, the result is 23.976 fps. BDRB doesn't complain about it being variable. If mediainfo doesn't say it is variable, maybe you don't check the PTS for variable.

On another project, a few of the files resulted in TSMuxer giving the following warnings:
Code:
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 100ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 200ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 400ms.
The sample I provided has no such warnings, so I'm guessing not variable frame rate. So, I'm confused as to where the variable frame rate is coming from.

Quote:
BTW: BD-RB will do what you said it won't (remove the pulldown flags and keep intact)... you just have to make sure you use the proper settings.
And just how does one get BDRB to remove the pulldown flags? What are the proper settings? So many settings.
Quote:
I've mentioned numerous times in this thread that 720x480@23.976fps isn't a part of the standard -- but is supported by every player so I allow it. In fact, since you said "...and then ran it through BDRB. BDRB left it alone.", I guess that is self evident. Of course, on most players you can leave the pulldown flags in and the player has the ability to playback at the original FILM rate anyway.
I suppose I should have figured that since you didn't barf on 480p23.976 (like you do some DD+ audio), that you were accepting it.
Quote:
I'll download your sources and check it out. I think I may know what change I made that caused BD-RB to misinterpret the source aspect on your 720x480 source. Not sure though.
As noted, it isn't just the aspect ratio. It is the mucking with the frame rate that is an issue. Telling it to not do VFR checking and that resulting in 19.181 fps setting and when it does do VRF checking and it produced 59.94 fps. So, getting BDRB to leave the SD file well enough alone, with the pulldown flags, would be great. I just do not know how to get there. Maybe the sample will help.
Quote:
The file import module (especially for 720x480) has become really convoluted from all the "adjustments" I have made for the stupid things people do when they reencode and post video files. I just ran into one the other day where someone wanted to keep a 4:3 source at a standard 720x480 resolution -- so they resized the picture to 640x480 and added black borders. Tell me how I'm supposed to adjust for that...
You don't. You just tell the person that what they did was wrong, pure and simple.
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Old 14th October 2018, 16:07   #27847  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
The problem isn't BD-RB. It's the output file from DVDFab. It is definitely variable framerate -- in the example you gave me there are over 1,000 instances where timecodes indicate missing frames (or other anomalies) in the source.

So... the bottom line is: don't create MKVs using DVDFab if you want to import into BD-RB.
Did you look at the VOB that I included? Mediainfo does not indicate variable frame rate. For a test, I used VideoReDo to also make a MKV file from reading the title from the DVD. It too resulted in mediainfo saying that it has a variable frame rate. Maybe there is something wrong with the MPEG-2 encoding on the DVD and not the fault of DVDFab, especially when another program gets it "wrong."

UPDATE: I took the VOB file and had TSMuxer create a TS file, keeping the pulldown flags. I then ran that through BDRB and guess what, the frame rate is 19.181 fps. No indication of variable frame rate via mediainfo.
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Old 14th October 2018, 16:31   #27848  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
Did you look at the VOB that I included? Mediainfo does not indicate variable frame rate. For a test, I used VideoReDo to also make a MKV file from reading the title from the DVD. It too resulted in mediainfo saying that it has a variable frame rate. Maybe there is something wrong with the MPEG-2 encoding on the DVD and not the fault of DVDFab, especially when another program gets it "wrong."

UPDATE: I took the VOB file and had TSMuxer create a TS file, keeping the pulldown flags. I then ran that through BDRB and guess what, the frame rate is 19.181 fps. No indication of variable frame rate via mediainfo.
I told you how to do it correctly -- I also pointed out why you had the issues... why do I want to keep pursuing a problem that is caused by something outside of my control?

I just used MKVMERGE to create an MKV out of the VOB. It indicates the framerate is variable. The bottom line is the source is corrupt. The 19.181fps represents the total number frames divided by the time -- which is a result of the variable framerate. MEDIAINFO can sometimes miss variable framerate, especially in atypical video files (like a VOB, which is rarely used without supporting external information). On a TS it doesn't even appear that MEDIAINFO even reports the "Frame Rate Mode". That's probably because TS has no indicator of a variable frame rate beyond the timestamps.

BD-RB can be forced to scan (IMPORT_VFR_SCAN=1) regardless of what MEDIAINFO says. But even then it will only do it when there is a "Frame Rate Mode" entry in the MEDIAINFO results.
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Old 14th October 2018, 16:50   #27849  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
You'd just import the DVD, and then select the playlists you want to output to ALTERNATE.
OK, I copied the DVD contents into a directory,
For mode I selected "Movie-Only Backup." Then I selected "Alternate Movie-Only Output." Within the list given I selected "MKV, Intact Video, Intact Audio" and saved it. I then did DVD import and selected a single title, the shortest one (which is the sample I provided). When I tell it to go, it built a BD structure. No indication of a MKV file being created.

Color me confused.
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Old 14th October 2018, 16:55   #27850  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
OK, I copied the DVD contents into a directory,
For mode I selected "Movie-Only Backup." Then I selected "Alternate Movie-Only Output." Within the list given I selected "MKV, Intact Video, Intact Audio" and saved it. I then did DVD import and selected a single title, the shortest one (which is the sample I provided). When I tell it to go, it built a BD structure. No indication of a MKV file being created.

Color me confused.
The import doesn't create an MKV. It only imports. You then have to select an output mode (like ALTERNATE) and run the job against the BD structure created during the import. You also have to make sure the source selected meets that minimum times specified for imports (see Import/QuickPlay Settings). I think it defaults to 15 minutes...

Is the DVD structure unaltered from an original disc? I ask because the VOB you gave me isn't consistent with the DVD standard (since it has a variable frame rate). If you are trying to use that one, something has happened to it in between the time it existed on a disc and it was created on the hard drive, and it is just going to fail again.

Who knows... it may be some type of new protection scheme (though I doubt it). Since the timecodes are used to display output on the player, if someone manipulated a video stream in a VOB it just might not be rejected. But it would definitely fail to meet the standard. If it is a protection scheme, it is something new, because I've worked with literally thousands of DVDs during development and testing of DVD-RB and BD-RB and have never seen a variable framerate.

What makes it even more rare is the weird variation in timecodes. Normally BD-RB would catch the underlying frame rate and correct it during the import's VFR->CFR conversion. Why would there ever be a period shorter than the distance between original frames of the video source when encoding VFR? That defeats the purpose of VFR. I may just change the algorithm so that it would use the "Original Frame Rate" when it is listed in the MEDIAINFO output rather than the value it determines from the timecode scan. That way the craziness shown in the VOB you sent me would just be ignored. But, with the crazy timecodes, I'm not sure DirectshowSource() would even work correctly during the VFR-->CFR conversion. It may be forced to drop frames where the interval is too short.
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Old 14th October 2018, 17:56   #27851  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
The import doesn't create an MKV. It only imports. You then have to select an output mode (like ALTERNATE) and run the job against the BD structure created during the import. You also have to make sure the source selected meets that minimum times specified for imports (see Import/QuickPlay Settings). I think it defaults to 15 minutes...
Ah, you gotta click on "backup" to get the MKV file(s) made. Not obvious, as I wasn't making a backup, per se. Maybe the BACKUP button should be changed to CREATE ALTERNATE, or whatever output mode was selected.
Quote:
Is the DVD structure unaltered from an original disc?
Yes. It was only renamed. Of course, DVD decryption removed as well.
Quote:
I ask because the VOB you gave me isn't consistent with the DVD standard (since it has a variable frame rate). If you are trying to use that one, something has happened to it in between the time it existed on a disc and it was created on the hard drive, and it is just going to fail again.
Like I said, nope. DVDFab and VideoReDo used the disc directly.
Quote:
I may just change the algorithm so that it would use the "Original Frame Rate" when it is specified in the MEDIAINFO output rather than the value it determines from the timecode scan. That way the craziness shown in the VOB you sent me would just be ignored.
That sounds like a great idea. Here's why. On another project (for which I do not have the DVDs anymore), I took the six DVDFab made MKV files and ran them through BDRB, VFR scan disabled. Every one of them ended up with a frame rate of 19.181. The DVD was released in 2011. When VFR scan was allowed, the aspect ratio was 3:2 and five were 59.94 and one was 29.97. All are 23.976 OFR, 2:3 pulldown flagged. I do not believe that DVDFab and VideoReDo are doing it wrong. I do not know what is going on with the time codes, but is appears that they can't be trusted. BTW, the DVD sample that you were working with was from a 2017 release.

Any idea on the 3:2 aspect ratio issue?
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Old 14th October 2018, 18:43   #27852  |  Link
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Thanks guys for the answers. I still am as confused as hell, but I'm THINKING that there must be some 'flag' or something that needs to be set going from the MKV which does play properly at 4:3 to the BDMV folder, when it then will display as stretched to fill the screen. What I should do is try to run it through BDRB and see what it does...
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Old 14th October 2018, 18:48   #27853  |  Link
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Any idea on the 3:2 aspect ratio issue?
That just means that no ratio was used during the VFR-->CFR reencode and 1:1 is assumed. No big deal, as the aspect information is kept separately (720x480=3:2). Pseudo-BD structures are meant only as an in-between, and they also aren't very efficiently encoded (translated --> near-lossless and very big) to be quicker. But I can add the ratio information to the VFR-->CFR encode easy enough.

I'm going to look at the timecodes more closely to see where the anomalies are.
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Old 14th October 2018, 19:08   #27854  |  Link
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That just means that no ratio was used during the VFR-->CFR reencode and 1:1 is assumed. No big deal, as the aspect information is kept separately (720x480=3:2). Pseudo-BD structures are meant only as an in-between, and they also aren't very efficiently encoded (translated --> near-lossless and very big) to be quicker. But I can add the ratio information to the VFR-->CFR encode easy enough.

I'm going to look at the timecodes more closely to see where the anomalies are.
Well... it just get's weirder when you look at it. Since the original rate was 23.976 there should be a little less than 42 milliseconds between pictures. But it appears to alternate between 33-34ms interval for one picture, followed by a 50ms interval for the next. That would average out right... but I've never seen anything like that. Then the last two frames have an interval of 0ms. I had my code count the frames... and the total seems right.
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Old 14th October 2018, 19:22   #27855  |  Link
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Mediainfo reports a time of 1:24
VideoReDo reports 2532 frames of 1:24:14
And then there is:
Code:
DGMPGIndexFileNV15 DGIndexNV 2051 X32
c:\Program Files (x86)\dgavcdecnv\

e:\\VTS_02_1.track_224.m2v 45388328
[...]
SIZ 720 x 480 
FPS 30000 / 1001
CODED 2028
PLAYBACK 2535
100.00% FILM
ORDER 1
That times out as well. 2028 coded frames is 23.976 fps, or 2028 x 1.25 = 2535, the 29.97 frame rate. The M2V file was created by using TSMuxer to demux the VOB file.

No idea why the timecodes are messed up with this file and the other six files from the other project. I'm guessing that if I tear apart other DVDs that I have, I will end up with the same timecode mess.
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Old Yesterday, 14:44   #27856  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
Mediainfo reports a time of 1:24
VideoReDo reports 2532 frames of 1:24:14
And then there is:
Code:
DGMPGIndexFileNV15 DGIndexNV 2051 X32
c:\Program Files (x86)\dgavcdecnv\

e:\\VTS_02_1.track_224.m2v 45388328
[...]
SIZ 720 x 480 
FPS 30000 / 1001
CODED 2028
PLAYBACK 2535
100.00% FILM
ORDER 1
That times out as well. 2028 coded frames is 23.976 fps, or 2028 x 1.25 = 2535, the 29.97 frame rate. The M2V file was created by using TSMuxer to demux the VOB file.

No idea why the timecodes are messed up with this file and the other six files from the other project. I'm guessing that if I tear apart other DVDs that I have, I will end up with the same timecode mess.
Well... after looking at the code and doing some testing, I can tell you that the timecodes aren't the only problem. My routine for handling 720x480/576 VFR conversion had some other issues as well. I'm working on it and will fix it for the next release.
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Old Yesterday, 15:32   #27857  |  Link
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Sure. What kind of audio are you using, AAC or AC3?

But... I'm not sure if it will keep the HDR, I'll have to check the code. I'm not sure I considered ALTERNATE when I added that code. It also has to use FFMPEG as the frame server (to keep HDR).
AC3 is preferred.

I have no problem changing settings
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Old Yesterday, 16:12   #27858  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
Well... after looking at the code and doing some testing, I can tell you that the timecodes aren't the only problem. My routine for handling 720x480/576 VFR conversion had some other issues as well. I'm working on it and will fix it for the next release.
Thanks for the update.
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Old Yesterday, 22:22   #27859  |  Link
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BD Rebuilder v0.60.03

I've updated the first post of this thread with a link to the latest version of BD-RB (v0.60.03). Changes for this release:
Code:
- Updated ALTERNATE encoding so that HDR
  information is kept when encoding UHD 
  with HEVC settings.
- Fixed an error in which particularly odd
  variable framerate sources might result
  in incorrect framerates during import.
- Fixed an error in which conversion from
  VFR to CFR of 720x480/576 sources during
  import results in incorrect aspect ratio.
- Added HEVC/No resize ALTERNATE presets to
  the default list for UHD output.
- Corrected the x: function in filtering so
  it correctly finds and executes external
  filters when ALTERNATE titles are added to
  a batch filter via "Add multiple playlists
  to queue".  
- Fixed an error introduced in v0.60.02 that
  forced AVISYNTH mode rather than FFMPEG
  for frame serving when testing UHD backups.
- Other minor corrections and cosmetic fixes.
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Old Yesterday, 23:29   #27860  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
I've updated the first post of this thread with a link to the latest version of BD-RB (v0.60.03). Changes for this release:
Code:
- Updated ALTERNATE encoding so that HDR
  information is kept when encoding UHD 
  with HEVC settings.
- Fixed an error in which particularly odd
  variable framerate sources might result
  in incorrect framerates during import.
- Fixed an error in which conversion from
  VFR to CFR of 720x480/576 sources during
  import results in incorrect aspect ratio.
- Added HEVC/No resize ALTERNATE presets to
  the default list for UHD output.
- Corrected the x: function in filtering so
  it correctly finds and executes external
  filters when ALTERNATE titles are added to
  a batch filter via "Add multiple playlists
  to queue".  
- Fixed an error introduced in v0.60.02 that
  forced AVISYNTH mode rather than FFMPEG
  for frame serving when testing UHD backups.
- Other minor corrections and cosmetic fixes.
Thank you!
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