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Old Yesterday, 16:42   #53301  |  Link
SamuriHL
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For me I have to set madvr to 16-235, GPU full, and TV low to get the proper levels on my C8. So no, IMO, it has not changed in the 2018 models. Default brightness of 50. I can only claim this to be my experience.
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Old Yesterday, 17:01   #53302  |  Link
austonrush
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Originally Posted by austonrush View Post
Hey Guys, I've got a repeated frames glitch when starting a video file. The audio plays in the background but, the video portion initially freezes. This started after the latest windows 10 and nvidia upgrade, never had it before. It can freeze for up to 10 seconds sometimes. Anyone else seeing this? It is not exclusive to any one video.

https://imgur.com/a/t8eGSZZ on average it repeats about 900 frames before the video kicks in.
I was able to isolate this to a LAV hardware decoder d3d11 issue. It only occurs when the display switches herz before playback ie. 60hz to 23hz etc. If I'm already at 23hz and start the video it works without any presentation glitches. If I switch to DXVA2 copyback everything works as it should. This has only been an issue since I upgraded windows 10 to the latest build.
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Old Yesterday, 18:09   #53303  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
I'm not technical enough to understand the BT.2390 paper in full, and can't quite grasp how the rolloff algorithm works (for 200 cd/m2 max brightness on a comp monitor, the 70% I measured as being way too high, 80-100 are flat i.e clipped in the graph (probably depends on MaxL of content and mastering monitor etc). But, everything under 50% (95 nits) is more-less following the PQ curve at all times so there should be no major black crush from MadVR's tone map curve (note: I'm doing HDR->SDR)
Something is lost in translation when going from HDR -> SDR.

If the target nits is higher than the display's actual brightness, you are only getting a ratio of the original curve.

Example: 480 target nits shown at 200 actual nits

480 nits is the lowest value of BT.2390 where the soft knee (where compression begins) is above reference white (100 nits). Lower values will place the soft knee lower and lower and compress at least some of the first 100 nits. The lower the target nits, the more reference white is compressed.

Approximate display brightness for reference white for 480 target nits at 200 actual nits:

4.8 ratio of target nits/reference white — 480/100 = 4.8 — at 200 actual display nits — puts an untouched diffuse white at close to 42 nits — 200/4.8 = 42 nits

In current test builds, if the content is below 480 nits, clipping is selected for as long as possible. This helps improve the brightness of content that is above the soft knee up to the set target nits, and even above the target nits, by eliminating the compression curve and reducing it as much as possible up to the peak brightness of the source.

Approximate brightness of 470 nits actual scene peak at 200 display nits with clipping enabled:

2.4 ratio of target nits/display nits — 480/200 = 2.4 — at 200 actual display nits — puts 470 nits at close to 196 nits — 470/2.4 = 196 nits

You would actually lose less brightness by outputting in PQ (HDR Output) to an HDR display because the target nits and display nits should match.

The gamma curve mismatch means this scale is not exact, but it is a general guide to actual brightness output.

Last edited by Warner306; Yesterday at 18:22.
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Old Yesterday, 18:48   #53304  |  Link
VoodooNBGD
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Hi all,

Does someone know if chroma upscaling in madVR works in one or two steps, when presentation resolution is larger than luma plane resolution?

For example, I have a H264 video in 1280x720 pixels (4:2:0 color with progressive scan). So, when I play it on a 1080p display, does madVR:

1. First upscales chroma from 640x360 to luma plane resolution (1280x720) using selected chroma upscale algorithm
2. Combines 1280x720 luma with upscaled chroma
3. Upscales the resulting picture to 1080p using selected image upscale algo

OR

1. Directly upscales chroma from 640x360 to desired presentation resolution (1080p) using selected chroma upscale algo
2. Upscales luma from 1280x720 to 1080p using selected image upscale algo
3. Combines both images to presentation picture

Thanks!
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Old Yesterday, 19:47   #53305  |  Link
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Is reduce compression artifacts needed when upscaling 1080p encodes to 2560x1080p? I was thinking using it with NGU Sharp - medium at strength 1.
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Old Yesterday, 19:51   #53306  |  Link
Betroz
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
report back what you get.

Which movie player are you using?
I am using MPC-HC, and yes of course I have set MadVr as video renderer

With these settings, both black level tests posted here show black crush :

- GPU set to Full RGB and 0-255 in Nvidia settings
- MadVr set to 0-255
- TV set to :

Black level HIGH
Gamma 2.2
Brightness 49
OLED light 50

Now the Windows desktop is brighter since I have the TV set to High in Black Level, and as I said the test pattern is very dark. I can't see all the boxes.
Edit : Small update here : I have increased my TV brightness to 53, and now I pass the THX Optimizer test image for brightness. Image here : https://ibb.co/dfZPLf
Edit 2 :The opening scene in Star Wars the last Jedi when you see the scrolling text over the dark sky with stars, with TV Black level set to Low, the black is perfect black. With Black Level set to High, black is not pitch black anymore. All this confirms my previous testing. So...

We can take this discussion in the other tread (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175769&page=6) I can post this there aswell.
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Last edited by Betroz; Yesterday at 20:26.
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Old Yesterday, 20:07   #53307  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siso View Post
Is reduce compression artifacts needed when upscaling 1080p encodes to 2560x1080p.
Needed? No. Is it beneficial for your content? Maybe. You'll have to compare for yourself. There are no wrong options here.
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Old Yesterday, 20:51   #53308  |  Link
Siso
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Needed? No. Is it beneficial for your content? Maybe. You'll have to compare for yourself. There are no wrong options here.
I read in Warner 306's guide, that the recommended strengths are from 2-8...
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Old Yesterday, 21:15   #53309  |  Link
mclingo
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Originally Posted by Betroz View Post
I am using MPC-HC, and yes of course I have set MadVr as video renderer

....
I just tried it myself, I see no difference at all with your pattern or the standard black clipping mate.

I have to say i'm glad as they should be no difference and I prefer having correct colour space on my desktop.

I guess you just got lucky with your combination of kit and settings, however...

I'm guessing this is your first OLED even though you've had several LG tvs?

My first gen 4k OLED has a less smooth transition at near black for setting brightness levels in that you have to move the brightness slider two notches to increase or decrease the brightness, this makes it a bit notchy for setting black clipping. This doesnt affect how it shows these elements, just how you setup the TV.

This was fixed in the next model E6, so it could be I just cant get that notch that you can.

on my black clipping pattern I prefer flashing 18 and above rather than 16/17 as this can produce raised blacks for me, this could be the issue.

for me though this is an advanage as it means there is no difference so I can stick with using HIGH and have the correct desktop colour space.
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Old Yesterday, 22:17   #53310  |  Link
el Filou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooNBGD View Post
Does someone know if chroma upscaling in madVR works in one or two steps, when presentation resolution is larger than luma plane resolution?
It first brings chroma to luma resolution. There's a (simplified) rendering path flowchart in this post: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...14#post1709814
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Old Yesterday, 22:37   #53311  |  Link
iSeries
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
I just tried it myself, I see no difference at all with your pattern or the standard black clipping mate.

I have to say i'm glad as they should be no difference and I prefer having correct colour space on my desktop.

I guess you just got lucky with your combination of kit and settings, however...

I'm guessing this is your first OLED even though you've had several LG tvs?

My first gen 4k OLED has a less smooth transition at near black for setting brightness levels in that you have to move the brightness slider two notches to increase or decrease the brightness, this makes it a bit notchy for setting black clipping. This doesnt affect how it shows these elements, just how you setup the TV.

This was fixed in the next model E6, so it could be I just cant get that notch that you can.

on my black clipping pattern I prefer flashing 18 and above rather than 16/17 as this can produce raised blacks for me, this could be the issue.

for me though this is an advanage as it means there is no difference so I can stick with using HIGH and have the correct desktop colour space.
If the lowest shade above black you see is bar 18 then you won't see what I'm talking about. From what I remember with the older OLEDs is there was no way to get 0.5% to show without raising the black level.

The first visible square in the pattern is equal to bar 17 (0.5%). This is crushed with brightness at default 50 and a full RGB chain. This square is visible with brightness at default 50 and limited>full>limited. As is per my experience with the first C7 I had which I exchanged for this one, and also a plasma a couple other LCDs.
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Old Yesterday, 22:53   #53312  |  Link
mytbyte
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Something is lost in translation when going from HDR -> SDR.

If the target nits is higher than the display's actual brightness, you are only getting a ratio of the original curve.

Example: 480 target nits shown at 200 actual nits

480 nits is the lowest value of BT.2390 where the soft knee (where compression begins) is above reference white (100 nits). Lower values will place the soft knee lower and lower and compress at least some of the first 100 nits. The lower the target nits, the more reference white is compressed...
Yes, you are right, I mixed up the comp monitor's results with my 500 nits SDR TV that indeed follows the original PQ curve up to 50% (but the roll-off is still very abrupt and is still clipped in 80-100% range, only when I select Master MaxL in HCFR to 10000 nits does the BT.2390 reference that HCFR underlays follow the MadVR roll-off more closely -still trying to get my head around this...this could well be a HCFR settings problem...

MadVR puts the diffuse white at about 80 cd/m2 for the said 200 nit monitor. Does this sound as being more in the ballpark?

Last edited by mytbyte; Yesterday at 23:06.
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Old Yesterday, 23:13   #53313  |  Link
mclingo
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If the lowest shade above black you see is bar 18 ....s.
ok, i'm going to change my mind on this, I can see a difference, I wasnt giving my eyes enough time to adjust in between changing the settings.

on LOW I can see all but the top corner two blocks far left, on high I cant quite see the top 3 blocks, I can barely see the 3rd one down but its there.

Not sure this is enough of a difference for the exta hassle of having a crushed desktop though.

But you are correct nonetheless, this is very interesting.

I think i'd have to see a real world difference to bother changing my setup.
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Old Today, 01:59   #53314  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by Siso View Post
I read in Warner 306's guide, that the recommended strengths are from 2-8...
Screenshot. Watch in motion. Decide for yourself, blindly setting options based on recommendations is not how I prefer to do things.
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Old Today, 07:31   #53315  |  Link
x7007
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
For me I have to set madvr to 16-235, GPU full, and TV low to get the proper levels on my C8. So no, IMO, it has not changed in the 2018 models. Default brightness of 50. I can only claim this to be my experience.
Why would you use 16-235 when you can 0-255 ? I am using FULL on the Nvidia + TV AUTO and MadVR 0-255 , there is a big different in quality when you use 16-235 .. why would you do that.. maybe it depends on the media player ? I don't know. but with Potplayer I just see 16-235 like when the TV can't support it , washed white even on the blackest black on the wide screen black lines that suppose to be blackest black on OLED
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Old Today, 07:43   #53316  |  Link
Betroz
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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
I'm guessing this is your first OLED even though you've had several LG tvs?
This is my first OLED TV, and my second LG TV. I returned my first LG after I bought it some 7 years ago, and now I am considering doing it again, but for another reason (bad motion performance, ie. stutter).

This is getting a bit off topic I think.
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Old Today, 07:45   #53317  |  Link
Betroz
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Why would you use 16-235 when you can 0-255 ? I am using FULL on the Nvidia + TV AUTO and MadVR 0-255 , there is a big different in quality when you use 16-235 .. why would you do that.. maybe it depends on the media player ? I don't know. but with Potplayer I just see 16-235 like when the TV can't support it , washed white even on the blackest black on the wide screen black lines that suppose to be blackest black on OLED
It depends on the setup I believe. With your TV at auto for black level, it could be possible that it defaults to High anyway.
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Old Today, 08:29   #53318  |  Link
ryrynz
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Why would you use 16-235 when you can '0-255 ?
'Cos he has his TV on low black levels (16-235)
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Old Today, 09:03   #53319  |  Link
madjock
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This thread "crushes my soul".

I have an older LG LCD TV, and if I select any calibration settings it looks crap, if I adjust settings to get good blacks, everything else looks crap.

Life is too short.
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Old Today, 09:33   #53320  |  Link
ryrynz
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RIP the black level on most LG OLEDs ~2017 and older. Now back to our usual programming.
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