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Old 23rd October 2020, 15:55   #60381  |  Link
chros
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About the 2nd question.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 16:36   #60382  |  Link
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About the 2nd question.
Thank you! I browsed that forum topic, noticed the differences in CPU/GPU usage - but didn't see any explained benefit quality wise. I recall reading somewhere on these forums that copyback is needed for MadVR to apply all of its filtering/chroma etc. Is that an accurate statement?
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Old 23rd October 2020, 18:43   #60383  |  Link
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Copyback is needed for some features, but not most of madVR's filtering and none of its scaling.

You need copyback for black bar removal and IVTC, but that is it.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 18:54   #60384  |  Link
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every time I start MPC/MadVR, there are a few frames dropped/repeated and a glitch shows up on the counter. Is there a way to not have this happen right when a file starts? Or reset the counter during playback?
I'm not sure if the problem is it's bothering you or just that the counter was taking that into account, but if it's bothering you, you can try ticking "delay playback start until render queue is full" in general settings. There's also an option to do that too when seeking. It will add a small delay when starting playback and seeking, but should avoid dropped frames or glitches during those moments.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 19:14   #60385  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Copyback is needed for some features, but not most of madVR's filtering and none of its scaling.

You need copyback for black bar removal and IVTC, but that is it.
You also need copyback for bd/uhd bd menus in jRiver, for those who use it as a player or front end and want menus.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 19:15   #60386  |  Link
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The other night I was messing with decoder settings, among other things. By changing everything except HEVC from "D3D11 native" to "None", and then enabling black bar cropping, I was able to get substantial performance improvements (8-10ms). Surprised me for sure, since my CPU is ancient (Core i7-920 from 2008). What really threw me off was that even without cropping, using CPU instead of GPU (GTX 960) was about 2ms faster.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 19:25   #60387  |  Link
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I've always been convinced there were issues with how madVR interacted with copyback decoding, seeing as every individual rendering step takes a hit in the stats in copyback when performance is decoding-limited due to an old system, look at this for example: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...09#post1885609
The performance impact is not just on the decoding part. Feels like copyback hangs some paths in the GPU (it's not the PCIe bus), and if the system is limiting copyback speed then this impacts other rendering tasks.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 21:05   #60388  |  Link
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the problem is these issues are very inconsistent between machines i have had system that didn't care at "all" about copyback. i needed very specific setup to show any different on that system and zen 2 on the other hand goes totally nuts and it works like a handbrake the last time i tested it this includes both nvidia and AMD gpus.

in my personal experience the difference is shown in the first renderstep and the last. so even the first super XBR chroma scale steps shows something like 3ms+ on my zen 2 with copyback and with native the usually ~0.3 same for the interop. it is like it waiting multiply MS to even start rendering.
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Old 23rd October 2020, 22:50   #60389  |  Link
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Not sure why anyone with a Zen 2 CPU would want or need to use hardware decoding... I am a firm believer in software decoding and if my ancient FX-8350 could just barely do HEVC 4K why wrestle with HW decoding?

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Old 23rd October 2020, 23:33   #60390  |  Link
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Ok, I switched to copyback by selecting my card under D3D11.

I was able to play with quality settings, and it seems my max setting for Chroma upscaling is NGU Medium Anti-Aliasing.

Same with image upscaling - NGU Medium AA.

**Can I assume that any level of NGU is better than the default?**

These settings give a max of 62% GPU Load, with 3.2Gb of Video ram (out of 4) being used. So anything higher I feel would be pushing it for smooth playback.

Also, I noticed an odd thing while watching a 1080p clip - it showed two chromas. One that showed NGU, and the other showed Bicubic60 I believe. Why two chroma values on the info? Was that part of the 'let madvr decide' options under NGU settings?
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Old 24th October 2020, 01:01   #60391  |  Link
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NGU low is somewhat debatable in my opinion, but medium and above are quite good.

Different levels of NGU do not impact memory use much, but the GPU buffer size does change memory use a lot. If you want to decrease memory use lowering the GPU buffers to 6 or even lower usually has no downside (six is plenty to always have a frame ready).

You might also disable most trade quality for performance options. However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled.

Yes, the second one is controlled by the chroma option under algorithm quality. Chroma is stored at half the resolution of the luma so it needs scaling twice. The first scaling is much more important, and is set by chroma upscaling, so using NGU med for the first one and Bicubic for the second makes a lot of sense. You also want to put the most effort into the luma quality so madVR automatically picks a reasonable chroma option given the luma option.
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Old 24th October 2020, 01:36   #60392  |  Link
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NGU low is somewhat debatable in my opinion, but medium and above are quite good.

Different levels of NGU do not impact memory use much, but the GPU buffer size does change memory use a lot. If you want to decrease memory use lowering the GPU buffers to 6 or even lower usually has no downside (six is plenty to always have a frame ready).

You might also disable most trade quality for performance options. However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled.

Yes, the second one is controlled by the chroma option under algorithm quality. Chroma is stored at half the resolution of the luma so it needs scaling twice. The first scaling is much more important, and is set by chroma upscaling, so using NGU med for the first one and Bicubic for the second makes a lot of sense. You also want to put the most effort into the luma quality so madVR automatically picks a reasonable chroma option given the luma option.
Thank you for the detailed response!

I watched a 2 hour movie, with no pauses, and by the end it showed just two frame drops, and 1 glitch... I never noticed the glitch, however, I did get up to pee.

I don't really care if it records a glitch as long as I can't SEE it stutter on the screen. But the quality looks so damn good this way, I may just have to live with a little stutter here and there. (That will be my 'sacrifice' for quality!)

What are your reasons for: "However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled."

Going to go watch another movie right now (I am nuts) - will update if anything crazy happens - otherwise, thank you everyone for the tips!
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Old 24th October 2020, 04:13   #60393  |  Link
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Which NGU should I choose?

For Chroma, and for upscaling?

Saw a 'guide' saying to use Anti-aliasing for Chroma, but Sharp for upscaling. I am currently set to anti-aliasing for both.

Thoughts?
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Old 24th October 2020, 04:27   #60394  |  Link
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I am a fan of NGU sharp for everything... this really boils down to personal preference...

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Old 24th October 2020, 04:42   #60395  |  Link
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I am a fan of NGU sharp for everything... this really boils down to personal preference...

QB
Are the medium settings between the different NGU's the same stress on the GPU?

E.g. is NGU Anti-aliasing Medium going to pull the same amount of GPU power as NGU Sharp Medium? Given that all the other settings under are set to 'let madvr decide'.

Or is one more intense than another?
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Old 24th October 2020, 06:27   #60396  |  Link
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They are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordX2 View Post
What are your reasons for: "However, I recommend leaving "don't rerender frame when fade in/out is detected" and "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" enabled."
fade in/out deletes a bunch (5) rendered frames from the queue and rerenders them as fast as possible. This often causes glitches.

Scale chroma separately is good because it isn't really lower quality and can save a huge amount of performance, especially when watching 4K at <4K or 8K at 4K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordX2 View Post
Which NGU should I choose?
I am a big fan of NGU AA. I always use NGU AA for chroma myself and often use NGU AA for everything. NGU Sharp is also nice and which I think looks best seems to depend on both the source and screen. NGU AA always looks good and while the extra sharpness from NGU Sharp is usually very nice I do notice it look unnatural with some sources.

I think if your pixels are totally invisible the downsides of NGU Sharp are less noticeable while if your pixels are pretty big NGU AA has a more natural look. I am not sure how others feel about this rule of thumb though, it does seem to be mostly preference. Most people do gravitate to NGU AA or NGU Sharp though.
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Old 24th October 2020, 12:27   #60397  |  Link
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I'm firmly in the ngu AA chroma ngu sharp luma camp myself. Everything I watch is either native 4k or upscaled to 4k. I've not seen too many issues with sharp being overcooked thankfully.

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Old 24th October 2020, 16:30   #60398  |  Link
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Ok, updated and played around - landed at:

Chroma - NGU AA HIGH

Luma - NGU Sharp HIGH

The high mark is pushing it for me. Almost completely saturating my GTX 1650 Super. Chroma with Sharp High peaked at 96%, Chroma with AA High peaked at 92%.

I watched the end of avenger endgame as a test - with so much non stop action and SO many characters on the screen at one time, I figured it was a good test to see if there were any lags created by the video card working so hard.

Played through that scene with no officially frame drops or glitches, and no visible micro stutters! So it looks like I have found the theoretical MAX for my system. And at least I know I can drop those NGU's down to medium if I do run into a video that has lag/chop to it.
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Old 24th October 2020, 21:09   #60399  |  Link
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I wouldn't use NGU High for chroma.
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Old 24th October 2020, 21:12   #60400  |  Link
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I like NGU AA high for chroma..

But I would drop chroma to medium before changing luma.
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