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11th January 2017, 03:33 | #1 | Link |
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Extremely weird field orders
I've recently noticed a phenomenon in hybrid content that I don't know how to deal with. Fields will sometimes be arranged in a pattern that looks perfectly fine when viewed on an interlaced display, and doesn't look the least bit odd when run through separatefields and doubleweave, but yields jerkiness when bob-deinterlaced regardless of what field order is used. Examples include:
The Robocop: Prime Directives movies Gargoyles opening credits Stargate SG-1 Most recently, I caught a quick example in the episode "Ouroboros" of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda Does anyone know what the hell this is, why it's done, and how to fix it?
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11th January 2017, 11:13 | #3 | Link |
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As for Gargoyles, the oddest thing about the opening credits is that objects move on different frames, that's actually normal for animation, you wind up with 24 frames of movement, with each object being animated at 12fps. Other than that the only problem is with the animation. The sun goes back a step every time the background moves. Goliaths toes are quivering while they move.
But there's a more important question to be asked here. Gargoyles is animated at 24p, what the hell are you passing it through a bobbing filter for? NTSC Season 1 actually comes pre-detelecined, you can see that each episodes is almost 100% film if you look at the d2v. If you used MPEG2Source you could probably get away with forced film, otherwise feeding the d2v file into TFM should give perfect results. Season 2 is hard telecined. Still, TFM should make short work of it. If you do that then THERE WILL NOT BE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE RESULTING FRAMES. At least not ones that are the deinterlacers fault. |
11th January 2017, 11:47 | #4 | Link | |
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I'd post one, but then people would bitch about Facebook's JPEG compression as if that somehow affected the field order. I'm no eager to start another one of those arguments. Not the opening credits. You mean it's natively film with soft pulldown flags, or at least that's what it switches to when the credits are done. Nope, the opening credits are full of orphaned fields. The title card at the end of the opening credits (the one where the letters look like they're reflecting light from a fire) is an even more unique situation because all of the top fields form one perfectly smooth 30 hz sequence and all of the bottom fields form another, so bob-deinterlacing creates a strobing effect.
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I ask unusual questions but always give proper thanks to those who give correct and useful answers. Last edited by Katie Boundary; 23rd April 2018 at 19:40. |
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11th January 2017, 11:54 | #5 | Link |
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How is Facebook's JPEG compression related to a video sample?
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11th January 2017, 12:00 | #6 | Link |
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You can try complementparity function before of IVTC or deinterlacer.
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11th January 2017, 12:06 | #7 | Link |
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The sun is badly animated. The logo is done like that to make it look like fire (there's something similar in the Jimmy Neutron opening sequence where the colours are inverted each field, otherwise except for fades JN is 29.97p).
The way to fix the logo is to convert it to 24fps by selecting frames alternately derived from top a bottom fields, the solution for the sun would be something similar. There's no actual problems with the field orders and nothing odd. |
11th January 2017, 12:17 | #8 | Link | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
LOLno, that absolutely will not work.
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11th January 2017, 12:45 | #9 | Link |
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Not in this context. It was explained to you how to create a video sample here. I find it hard to believe that you can't follow these instructions so one has to assume that you simply don't want to post a sample for whatever reason.
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11th January 2017, 16:09 | #10 | Link | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...31#post1792931 Last edited by hello_hello; 11th January 2017 at 16:17. |
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11th January 2017, 21:21 | #11 | Link | |
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Quote:
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I ask unusual questions but always give proper thanks to those who give correct and useful answers. Last edited by Katie Boundary; 23rd April 2018 at 19:40. |
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11th January 2017, 21:27 | #12 | Link | |
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Quote:
No-one else seems to have a problem uploading samples. |
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11th January 2017, 22:27 | #13 | Link |
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A picture says a thousand words, however, the real experts here need a bit more, stop prevaricating and produce some kind of clip
for the guys to work their magic on, otherwise, stop posting.
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11th January 2017, 23:10 | #14 | Link |
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I agree with davidhorman's last post: a sample is essential.
When I try to extract the original progressive film from what gets captured from an NTSC camera "filming" the output of a 16mm projector from which the shutter has been removed, I have to recombine fields from adjacent frames, while deleting both redundant fields as well as fields that capture the "pulldown" frame (which "pulldown" is used in its original film context, where the actual film is being pulled down into the gate, creating a totally blurred frame, even when the camera shutter speed is set to 1/1000 second). I mention this, because some of what I needed to do for that is similar to what, perhaps, needs to be done here. The only way I was able to achieve what I wanted was by exporting all the TFM metrics (including the MIC matching parameters) and feeding them into a spreadsheet. In that spreadsheet, I created logic which looks backwards and forwards in time, using all the metrics, and which produces a perfect matching and decimation result. The output of that spreadsheet is then fed into Pass 2 of Multidecimate which does the actual decimation as well as the recombination of fields, even if they were originally in different frames. This is another way of saying the same thing as (I think) Katie was saying, although maybe it was in the other thread he started which appears to be, more or less, the same subject. |
12th January 2017, 01:57 | #16 | Link |
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I think that, at least in some cases, the idea is that the image is supposed to look blended when played back...
Mpeg2source/mpeg2dec3.dll (DGdecode). I'm not aware of any others that can read d2v files.
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12th January 2017, 12:00 | #17 | Link |
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So as you found your file seems to have inconsistent field orders (field order transitions). Does it also have repeated frames/fields? Are any RFF flags present?
If the TFF and RFF flags are set correctly your clip will normally playback correctly. That's apparently what you get when you play the clip as is. However, if you apply deinterlacers (or bobbers) the result may be different: Some deinterlacers/bobbers don't require consistent field orders, some do and will otherwise produce jerky streams. |
12th January 2017, 17:50 | #19 | Link | |
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To repeat my request: post a clip, post a clip, post a clip. I want to help, which is why I sometimes post, but I have learned that he doesn't really want to solve his/her "problem" but instead just wants to keep the thread going, probably in order to have someone to "talk" to. |
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13th January 2017, 13:55 | #20 | Link |
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https://www.sendspace.com/file/74oau3
Look at the spinning radar-like displays in the background. When bob-deinterlaced, they normally move clockwise, but sometimes jerk counter-clockwise for 1 or 2 fields. I'll have to re-rip Gargoyles, Prime Directives, and Stargate if you want clips from those too.
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