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Old 3rd November 2018, 16:59   #53541  |  Link
ashlar42
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
It reduces the compression applied by the tone mapping curve when possible by setting the curve for each scene. If you measure a file before playing it, it is possible to pick out scenes and the measurement tool will flag the brightness of the scene. Then the tone curve is set for each scene in the video. This has the most impact slightly above the set target nits.

Tone mapping goes under the PQ curve, which makes the image darker, and dynamic tone mapping attempts to dynamically reduce compression when possible.
Ok. And thanks.

But isn't this what Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are supposed to do?
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Old 3rd November 2018, 17:02   #53542  |  Link
Warner306
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Yes, but they don't exist yet in the form used by most here. It is limited to HDR10. By first decoding the video or using real-time brightness histograms, you can mostly replace the need for HDR10+ or Dolby Vision content by creating the missing metadata.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 17:32   #53543  |  Link
ashlar42
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Yes, but they don't exist yet in the form used by most here. It is limited to HDR10. By first decoding the video or using real-time brightness histograms, you can mostly replace the need for HDR10+ or Dolby Vision content by creating the missing metadata.
Yes. Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I think this is a great achievement. Even more so considering that not all TVs support Dolby Vision (even from major producers).
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Old 3rd November 2018, 18:07   #53544  |  Link
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measuring peak brightness is done by every local dimming TV well obviously because that's how you know how to dim the back light.

in theory this gives you HDR10+ (except for better encoding i still don't known what the big deal about this is instead of just sending it as HDR10 and let the TV measure it) and madVR could repack it like that.
but i really have a feeling madVR is using this to do a better job at tone mapping. so no the core reason to use HDR10+ is not given with this.

DV is a different beast on BD it adds extra high lights which are completely missing with out it and it has a higher insane peak nit that can't be put into HDR+.
and it's to me very obvious that it is very useful for HDR -> SDR conversation.

@NoTechi

an SDR 3D lut is used for HDR-SDR conversion and to get the best possible result there a gamma of 2.2 is needed.
because it really looks like madVR is mapping the PQ to 2.2 so to get the same brightness the PQ would have and to get the gamma processing kind of working.
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Old 4th November 2018, 02:14   #53545  |  Link
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What kind of numbers are RTX 2080 Ti owners seeing with the most intensive settings (e.g., NGU Very High) enabled for 4K content?
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Old 4th November 2018, 10:23   #53546  |  Link
Ampallang
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Try these:

4K UHD:
  • Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (medium)
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
  • Image upscaling: Jinc + AR
  • Image doubling: Off
  • Upscaling refinement: Off
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
  • Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

1080p:
  • Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (low)
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
  • Image upscaling: Off
  • Image doubling: NGU Sharp
  • <-- Luma doubling: high
  • <-- Luma quadrupling: let madVR decide (direct quadruple - NGU Sharp (high))
  • <-- Chroma: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Doubling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 1.2x (or bigger))
  • <-- Quadrupling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 2.4x (or bigger))
  • <-- Upscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Downscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic150 + LL + AR)
  • Upscaling refinement: Off
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: medium/medium
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
  • Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

DVD:
  • Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (low)
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
  • Image upscaling: Off
  • Image doubling: NGU Anti-Alias
  • <-- Luma doubling: high
  • <-- Luma quadrupling: let madVR decide (direct quadruple - NGU Anti-Alias (high))
  • <-- Chroma: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Doubling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 1.2x (or bigger))
  • <-- Quadrupling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 2.4x (or bigger))
  • <-- Upscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Downscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic150 + LL + AR)
  • Upscaling refinement: Off
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: medium/medium
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
  • Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

You may not agree with the use debanding with those profiles. If you want the image to be sharper, try adding some image enhancements/upscaling refinement.

There is more information in the link in my signature if you are interested. The choice of what to use is mostly up to you.
Hi Warner that works very well now I will try to set for the sources some fine tuning. But the pas far as I can see it looks as good and better than before and I have the feeling that it take less resources in hdr.

Short question for a gpu upgrade end of the year. In case that the 1080 will disappear without a price tag of 300 Euro. I will look into an amd rx580 or vega56/64 how much more quality I can get in comparison to above settings with my gtx 960. I think the 4:4:4 and 10bit will make a huge step in pq, because the gtx can only handle 4:2:2 8bit. Or didnt I get more power and visual pq improvements. I ask because I want to switch next year from 55 oled to 65 oled or 75+ qled / micro led. Source is always with madvr via PC.

Last edited by Ampallang; 4th November 2018 at 10:26.
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Old 4th November 2018, 10:33   #53547  |  Link
Ampallang
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@all who use a TV as device can you please clarify that the tonemapping of madvr make no sense other than with a projector. Because the TV has always the tonemapping active in hdr.
So only for sdr TVs who aren't able to display hdr itself it will be an improvement. Or is there any benefit that some users are doing tonemapping for there hdr WCG TVs via madvr?
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Old 4th November 2018, 11:03   #53548  |  Link
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@Ampallang madshi already answered this: basically, there are two possibilities:
- madVR might do better tone mapping than the TV if the TV's pretty bad, so using madVR tone mapping with SDR output and the TV at max brightness might give better results than the TV's own HDR mode
OR:
- if the TV has bad tone mapping but is not that dumb, you may be able to go around it by giving madVR the real max nits of your TV and still outputting in HDR, and then the TV will avoid doing a second tone mapping as the brightest pixels will be under its max brightness and it would be able to display 'as is'
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Old 4th November 2018, 11:35   #53549  |  Link
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Hi Warner that works very well now I will try to set for the sources some fine tuning. But the pas far as I can see it looks as good and better than before and I have the feeling that it take less resources in hdr.

Short question for a gpu upgrade end of the year. In case that the 1080 will disappear without a price tag of 300 Euro. I will look into an amd rx580 or vega56/64 how much more quality I can get in comparison to above settings with my gtx 960. I think the 4:4:4 and 10bit will make a huge step in pq, because the gtx can only handle 4:2:2 8bit. Or didnt I get more power and visual pq improvements. I ask because I want to switch next year from 55 oled to 65 oled or 75+ qled / micro led. Source is always with madvr via PC.
I have a GTX 960 + 65" oled and you'd be wasting your money.

It won't make any noticeable difference. A 960 is already more than capable with madVR.

4:4:4 and 10bit makes no difference. Video is mastered at 4:2:0 and 8 bit output with dithering is indistinguishable from 10 bit.
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Old 4th November 2018, 12:42   #53550  |  Link
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"960 can only handle 4:2:2 8bit" How did you even arrive at that? I ran 10 bit and 4:4:4 on my 960 no problem.

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I have a GTX 960 + 65" oled and you'd be wasting your money.
AHEM, madVR's tonemapping is kinda a big deal and he's sure as heck gonna want more than a 960 for that and other stuff. How the RX is gonna cope I have no idea though, someone can weigh in once the next version lands in maybe a week or two.
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Old 4th November 2018, 16:18   #53551  |  Link
Warner306
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What kind of numbers are RTX 2080 Ti owners seeing with the most intensive settings (e.g., NGU Very High) enabled for 4K content?
The only person who posted said there was a 40% performance improvement over the GTX 1080 Ti.
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Old 4th November 2018, 16:21   #53552  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by Ampallang View Post
Short question for a gpu upgrade end of the year. In case that the 1080 will disappear without a price tag of 300 Euro. I will look into an amd rx580 or vega56/64 how much more quality I can get in comparison to above settings with my gtx 960. I think the 4:4:4 and 10bit will make a huge step in pq, because the gtx can only handle 4:2:2 8bit. Or didnt I get more power and visual pq improvements. I ask because I want to switch next year from 55 oled to 65 oled or 75+ qled / micro led. Source is always with madvr via PC.
The GTX 960 can do 8-bit 4:4:4. You wouldn't get much of an upgrade with the RX 580 because it is slow with madVR. Your settings would end up more or less the same. I don't know if you need a Vega 56/64, but you could use higher settings in madVR. I think it depends on the person. Some people haven't watched a lot of content and don't really notice the difference, while others do. The GTX 960 can give you a good image, but it is just good enough for use with madVR at 4K.

Personally, I think the GTX 1060 6GB is the ideal GPU for madVR for current uses. You can't use very high upscaling, but you can do almost everything else.

See this build guide for more information: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...tpc-madvr.html
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Old 4th November 2018, 16:42   #53553  |  Link
Ampallang
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"960 can only handle 4:2:2 8bit" How did you even arrive at that? I ran 10 bit and 4:4:4 on my 960 no problem.



AHEM, madVR's tonemapping is kinda a big deal and he's sure as heck gonna want more than a 960 for that and other stuff. How the RX is gonna cope I have no idea though, someone can weigh in once the next version lands in maybe a week or two.

OK which Windows version and Treiber version?i can only use 4:2:2 8bit can you please send me a screen. I am running windows 10 and use native 4k resolution the refreshrate change nothing always al8 bit and 4:2:2.

@hdr when I compare color and greyscale ramps between 8 and 10 bit the 10bit look always smoother. Of course on blurays there is only 4:2:0 but never the less I want to try the 4:4:4 also I am interested in using ngu high. So I think an upgrade on gpu could be a good think especially when the price will drop soon. 1070 will be fantastic choice. An amd. Rx580 is down to 169 eur in 8gb. And vega is same price as 1070 ti on special

@el Filou the problem is the tonemapping on the one hand and on the other hand the blue white subpixel on oled at 400 nits. And this is exact the problem with hdr without tonemapping and hdr flag you won't get the high Nits. With hdr flag and tonemapping I had 800+nits.but tonemapping isn't very well and the colors are inaccurate because of blue white sub Pixel.
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Old 4th November 2018, 16:51   #53554  |  Link
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driver and windows version have nothing todo with that.

what is your end device and is a AVR in between?
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Old 4th November 2018, 17:31   #53555  |  Link
Ampallang
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driver and windows version have nothing todo with that.

what is your end device and is a AVR in between?
Device LG oled b7 nothing between.


Short question regarding madvr tonemapping. Normally I used a rec. 709 calibration on my isf profile and then do 3d lut for same and load to into madvr all on 100nits. Is it possible to switch LUTs? One profile lut for sdr content and one profile and lut for hdr to sdr tonemapping...so I can switch profiles on TV and the lut will be loaded in madvr regarding profiles. I mean when I understood right madvr can do the tonemapping from hdr to sdr use therefor a sdr lut and this will proberly look better than hdr as hdr on TV tonemapping. But will I get any benefits when I calibrate the TV profile for max gamut on max nits. And do a 3d lut on this max gamut? I mean tonemapping will do alot but it won't give you that kind of rich colors especially neon lights. Because they aren't in the rec709 gamut. I read now plenty of threads and post on this but I didn't get the answer I am looking into.

So b7 set to Max brightness tonemapping to that max brightness hdr to sdr via madvr what about the calibration 3d lut and the profile of TV gamut nits? Gamma 2.2 that I could find because madshi built the tonemapping math on this as far I could read.

Last edited by Ampallang; 4th November 2018 at 18:04.
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Old 4th November 2018, 18:06   #53556  |  Link
huhn
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what is the exact name of your GPU?

and about the 3d LUT. can't you see the inputs for bt 2020 and dci p3 3d LUTs on the 3d LUT calibration page?

so for the source colorspace you can use DCI P3 or BT 2020.
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Old 4th November 2018, 19:29   #53557  |  Link
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Personally, I think the GTX 1060 6GB is the ideal GPU for madVR for current uses. You can't use very high upscaling, but you can do almost everything else.
I would certainly agree with that. I've got all the trade performance options disabled and I'm playing in 4K including the tone mapping for HDR. The 1060 6GB works very well!
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Old 4th November 2018, 21:37   #53558  |  Link
Ampallang
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what is the exact name of your GPU?

and about the 3d LUT. can't you see the inputs for bt 2020 and dci p3 3d LUTs on the 3d LUT calibration page?

so for the source colorspace you can use DCI P3 or BT 2020.
Asus strix gtx 960 4g.

Of course I can see the 3d lut for p3 and BT 2020 but as far as I know it isn't possible to load more than one lut into madvr. You have to decide which one you want and that it. Or did I miss understood something?

The problem is that you can't calibrate something else than sdr on oled TV via lut. The panel drift like hell and the tonemapping. But as I wrote I never used the madvr tonemapping before and this is the reason of my question if it will work to calibrate sdr to wide gamut and do the tonemapping with max brightness in sdr mode. For tonemapping hdr to sdr wcg with madvr

Last edited by Ampallang; 4th November 2018 at 21:39.
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Old 4th November 2018, 22:04   #53559  |  Link
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you can use them all at the same time.
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Old 4th November 2018, 22:22   #53560  |  Link
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you can use them all at the same time.
Great than I read something wrong. Good to know. But still issue with the measurement on TV.

First of all I have to fix the 4:4:4 10bit.
But to get a little bit deeper how would I calibrate the b7 and the 3d lut best fo hdr to sdr to do tonemapping via madvr?
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