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Old 21st July 2016, 14:29   #241  |  Link
Jamaika
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Originally Posted by mandarinka View Post
The jury is still out on AV1, but currently it seems like it will mostly inherit On2 DNA, so I don't expect much there. Hopefully Xiph/Mozilla will still manage to influence it in a good way, though.
To this day I don't know what codec Daala improved the codec AV1. I have no way of comparison VP10 vs AV1. You may find that they are comparable in quality.
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Old 21st July 2016, 15:14   #242  |  Link
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Which they succeeded at... don't get the hostility of people here.
You mean toward the degenerate legislation(s) that allow software patents? What is there not to get?
Without such they could effort into actual developments instead of circumventions...
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Old 21st July 2016, 15:53   #243  |  Link
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Just so we're on the same page here I was saying that Daala devs succeeded in making a competitive video codec.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to say - do you think it was somehow daalas fault that we still have software patents?

To mandarinka: personally i'm optimistic about AV1, the spec will be good enough that we will likely get a good encoder software finally (and also some good encoding hardware).
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:47   #244  |  Link
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Just so we're on the same page here I was saying that Daala devs succeeded in making a competitive video codec.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to say - do you think it was somehow daalas fault that we still have software patents?

To mandarinka: personally i'm optimistic about AV1, the spec will be good enough that we will likely get a good encoder software finally (and also some good encoding hardware).
I don't know why you don't get that that I was cursing software patents and not Daala...

Last edited by mzso; 22nd July 2016 at 09:49.
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:06   #245  |  Link
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Originally Posted by littlepox View Post
Another thing is the design of encoder is much more challenging than design of format. Today, if I am to encode a video without x264/x265, honestly, I'd use Easy Real Producer. I've seen how it beats those crappy H.264/H.265/VP9 encoders.

R.I.P. daala, hope AV1 can fulfill its destine.
I still hope one day we gonna see those results from Real coming back for now all the NGV Results are buried somewhere deep in some Intel Restroom, though Intel is AOM member as well so who knows

Sure Intel, AMD and Nvidia are mostly only there for getting their Hardware Decoding ready to go but they also have valuable R&D in different parts that might become interesting if they decide to share them

So there might be a possibility we gonna see Intel contributing some NGV IP there would be actually no better time then now for it instead of leaving everything taking dust in the Restroom
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Old 22nd September 2016, 07:23   #246  |  Link
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Daala finally provides color depth 10 bit. Unfortunately, the lack of support the CPU very limited coding. (max. fullhd) It's very slow. Still need to improve the player because he doesn't work.
Code:
daalaenc.exe --b-frames 4 --keyframe-rate 23.976 --complexity 5 --video-quality 18 --fpr --output "image_rate18.ogg" -
Code:
Output #0, yuv4mpegpipe, to 'pipe:':
  Metadata:
    date            : 2016-09-07T08:27:49+02:00
    encoder         : Lavf57.50.100
    Stream #0:0: Video: wrapped_avframe, yuv444p10le, 4096x2304, q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 23.98 fps, 23.98 tbn, 23.98 tbc
    Metadata:
      encoder         : Lavc57.57.101 wrapped_avframe
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (rawvideo (native) -> wrapped_avframe (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
File '-' is 4096x2304 23.976 fps 444p10 video.
Compressing...
frame=    7 fps=0.6 q=-0.0 size=  387072kB time=00:00:00.29 bitrate=10860790.5kbits/s speed=0.0241x
https://github.com/xiph/daala/commit...c4c17ca33bcb1b
https://github.com/xiph/daala/commit...6dcbec9f5d1b63
https://github.com/xiph/daala/commit...5c6066cddf1f41

Last edited by Jamaika; 22nd September 2016 at 08:01.
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Old 11th October 2016, 10:45   #247  |  Link
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A poster summarizing Daala's technologies:
https://jmvalin.ca/video/mmsp2016_poster.pdf
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Old 11th October 2016, 14:23   #248  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Clare View Post
A poster summarizing Daala's technologies:
https://jmvalin.ca/video/mmsp2016_poster.pdf
So AV1 is a tweaked(vp9), tweaked (vp10), tweaked(av1) VP8. Is it worth the fuss? They could have just renamed and released VP9, or whichever state was VP10 at that point as AV1.

Then they could have moved on to AV2 with drastic/revolutionary changes.

Last edited by mzso; 19th May 2017 at 09:48.
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Old 11th October 2016, 17:07   #249  |  Link
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So AV1 is a tweaked(vp9), tweaked (vp10), tweaked(av1) VP8. Is it worth the fuss? They could have just renamed and released VP9, or whichever state was VP10 at that point as AV1.
No, I don't know where you've read that. On the poster it clearly says that AV1 is VP9 as base + parts from Daala, Thor (and VP10) and new contributions (work that has been done exclusively on AV1 codebase).

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Originally Posted by mzso View Post
Then they could have moved on to AV2 which drastic/revolutionary changes.
AV1 was never meant to have revolutionary changes - it needs to get to the market rather quickly (to still take advantage of HEVC licensing uncertainty).
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Old 11th October 2016, 18:05   #250  |  Link
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On the poster it clearly says that AV1 is VP9 as base + parts from Daala, Thor (and VP10) and new contributions (work that has been done exclusively on AV1 codebase).
AKA. Tweaked VP9, the way I see it.

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AV1 was never meant to have revolutionary changes - it needs to get to the market rather quickly (to still take advantage of HEVC licensing uncertainty).
Missed my second point too. If that was the most significant aspect they should have just released as soon as they got an agreement upon AV1. VP10 + throw in whatever is considered "mature" and gainful from the others. Then start optimizing the encoder/decoder.
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Old 11th October 2016, 18:06   #251  |  Link
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Well thankfully they don't listen to you
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Old 12th October 2016, 19:24   #252  |  Link
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Missed my second point too. If that was the most significant aspect they should have just released as soon as they got an agreement upon AV1. VP10 + throw in whatever is considered "mature" and gainful from the others. Then start optimizing the encoder/decoder.
For a codec (COMpressor, DECompressor, remember) you can't just "+ throw in whatever." Even if individual algorithms are mature, there are all kinds of changes to bitstream syntax that need to be made, probabilities of code values to be statistically analyzed and optimized in the bitstream, etcetera. AV1 is actually going pretty fast for what's aiming to be an industry standard codec. One little bug in the encoder that goes into the bitstream and then the decoder assumes can break clean-room optimizations and bake in non-optimal behaviors for a decade.

There are plenty of little weird things in the VPx history where a symmetrical bug in the encoder and decoder caused strange and painful limitations for 3rd party implementations. And anything like that in AV1 couldn't be fixed until AV2, because once you have decoders shipping in hardware, you need to stay compatible with them FOREVER. There are 10+ year old H.264 Baseline Profile decoders that modern encoders can make perfectly compatible streams for.

If a codec is just running as software in web browsers, things can be a lot more fluid. But not if it's going into fixed-function hardware! Or on any device that doesn't reliably get automatic firmware updates.
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Old 13th October 2016, 12:59   #253  |  Link
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AKA. Tweaked VP9, the way I see it.
OK, I agree - it is a tweaked VP9, but that doesn't mean anything. Why start from scratch when you can take a proven stable baseline and "tweak" that.

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Originally Posted by mzso View Post
Missed my second point too. If that was the most significant aspect they should have just released as soon as they got an agreement upon AV1. VP10 + throw in whatever is considered "mature" and gainful from the others. Then start optimizing the encoder/decoder.
I (still) don't understand your point - that is exactly what they do now. PVQ, daala EC and deringing filter is what worked good in daala and they are integrating it into AV1. Same with CLPF from thor and things like rANS in VP10. However you can't do this overnight.. it is still a lot of work.
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Old 17th October 2016, 02:19   #254  |  Link
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To me, VP9 --to-> AV1 isn't that different from Dothan --to-> Conroe in CPUs.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64; 17th October 2016 at 02:24.
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Old 18th October 2016, 19:09   #255  |  Link
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Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
For a codec (COMpressor, DECompressor, remember) you can't just "+ throw in whatever." Even if individual algorithms are mature, there are all kinds of changes to bitstream syntax that need to be made, probabilities of code values to be statistically analyzed and optimized in the bitstream, etcetera. AV1 is actually going pretty fast for what's aiming to be an industry standard codec. One little bug in the encoder that goes into the bitstream and then the decoder assumes can break clean-room optimizations and bake in non-optimal behaviors for a decade.

There are plenty of little weird things in the VPx history where a symmetrical bug in the encoder and decoder caused strange and painful limitations for 3rd party implementations. And anything like that in AV1 couldn't be fixed until AV2, because once you have decoders shipping in hardware, you need to stay compatible with them FOREVER. There are 10+ year old H.264 Baseline Profile decoders that modern encoders can make perfectly compatible streams for.

If a codec is just running as software in web browsers, things can be a lot more fluid. But not if it's going into fixed-function hardware! Or on any device that doesn't reliably get automatic firmware updates.

On that regards im pretty eager to see if we currently stand in the middle of a transition @ Intel and AMD to FPGA IP Cores for the Video Decoding/Encoding

It looks like this could happen in the not so distant future

After all the Hardware (extension) activation/upgrade tests in the past.
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Last edited by CruNcher; 18th October 2016 at 19:19.
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Old 20th October 2016, 19:17   #256  |  Link
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Problem with playing and converting video to YUV 10bit.
daalaenc.exe --b-frames 4 --video-quality 25 --complexity 3 --output "daala+1660_comp3_q25.ogg" -
https://www.sendspace.com/file/iknrja
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Old 21st October 2016, 19:16   #257  |  Link
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I still hope one day we gonna see those results from Real coming back for now all the NGV Results are buried somewhere deep in some Intel Restroom, though Intel is AOM member as well so who knows

Sure Intel, AMD and Nvidia are mostly only there for getting their Hardware Decoding ready to go but they also have valuable R&D in different parts that might become interesting if they decide to share them

So there might be a possibility we gonna see Intel contributing some NGV IP there would be actually no better time then now for it instead of leaving everything taking dust in the Restroom
As per your quoted post. OMG. I was so afraid of admitting my love with RMVB these days. Good memories with Karl on Doom9. ( Where is he now ? )

What is NGV? Was it not the codename for RV40 aka RMVB? If not is it suppose to be after RV40? Which i remembered the open it up as Helix.
And what is NGV suppose to do with Intel?

I really wish Real could truly open up RMVB.
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Old 30th October 2016, 08:52   #258  |  Link
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Not only you

NGV (RealVideo 11) was the Next Generation Video Codec developed at Real after their H.264 contribution (RV10) then it was stopped and complete ip and NGV Team transfered to Intel

Pretty much Real Networks History as active Codec Developer ended @ that time.

Karl was not among them he stayed at Real and still is there worked on some Cloud Sureplay seemless Device Transcoding and Player parts it seems

2014-16: RealTimes for Mac

Though the Chinese (Asian) arm of Real still seems to actively working on the Content Creation part and also update it most probably based on the older code path (RV10)

http://www.realnetworks.com.cn/en/en/RealMedia%20HD
http://www.realplayer.cn/software/Re...ease_Notes.pdf

Quote:
RealProducer HD for Windows enables consumers to create videos in HD at faster speeds than H.265 with comparable image quality. It comes with a smart, intuitive user interface and enables substantially faster encoding and uploading HD video content to the web and the cloud.
Quote:
Users enjoy

Shorter cache/download time with reduced data costs versus H.264

Higher image quality with lower storage needs versus H.264

Lower battery consumption for longer viewing time versus H.265
Most probably though in the comparison range of VP9 at best or a weak GPU IHV H.265 Encoder
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Last edited by CruNcher; 30th October 2016 at 10:21.
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Old 4th November 2016, 16:55   #259  |  Link
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Not only you

NGV (RealVideo 11) was the Next Generation Video Codec developed at Real after their H.264 contribution (RV10) then it was stopped and complete ip and NGV Team transfered to Intel

Pretty much Real Networks History as active Codec Developer ended @ that time.

Karl was not among them he stayed at Real and still is there worked on some Cloud Sureplay seemless Device Transcoding and Player parts it seems

2014-16: RealTimes for Mac

Though the Chinese (Asian) arm of Real still seems to actively working on the Content Creation part and also update it most probably based on the older code path (RV10)

http://www.realnetworks.com.cn/en/en/RealMedia%20HD
http://www.realplayer.cn/software/Re...ease_Notes.pdf





Most probably though in the comparison range of VP9 at best or a weak GPU IHV H.265 Encoder
Sorry if this is going to be off Daala's topic a little.

ARH!. Yes, That NGV.
WHY THE HECK did Intel decide to invest in RV11 aka NGV? And then not release anything and Kill it?

I think ( not sure now ), Real Producer, or the rmvb encoder itself has some of the best default Pre and Post Processing settings, you get very decent results without any tweaking or parameters. RM was crap. RMVB totally changes the game. It goes from amazing in Anime and very decent in other categories. It doesn't preserve any grain in movies, so it never did well in high quality Rips.

And it is for this very reason, I never liked VP8, VP9, or VP10. Even after the acquisition of Google, they still smells of On2.
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Old 9th November 2016, 19:45   #260  |  Link
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