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Old 10th September 2018, 10:36   #52321  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Honestly this smells more like an issue with ASIO4ALL, since its the only application affected and its not really that special (its basically an ordinary application that for some reason cannot see your audio device anylonger), did you ever report it to them to be fixed?
I tried to check if they got other reports of this, but their support forums seem to be down, so there is that. Maybe an alternative product is more then just a work-around at this point.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:52   #52322  |  Link
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i still wonder how nvidia can break something they don't support.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:54   #52323  |  Link
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@Manni - Yup 399.07 works as you said.... still it is all a PITA, esp with HDR on UHD HFR material on the JVC. Looking forward to just using madVR to map HDR to SDR and just use 8-Bit.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:56   #52324  |  Link
Manni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Honestly this smells more like an issue with ASIO4ALL, since its the only application affected and its not really that special (its basically an ordinary application that for some reason cannot see your audio device anylonger), did you ever report it to them to be fixed?
I tried to check if they got other reports of this, but their support forums seem to be down, so there is that. Maybe an alternative product is more then just a work-around at this point.
As I said, it was broken, got fixed (with the nVidia driver, Asio4all remained the same version), is now broken again. There is definitely an issue with Asio4All, and I indicated that FlexAsio is a workaround, though not a replacement because it has some limitations.

Yes I reported it (both times). They have an email address to report issues on their website.
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Last edited by Manni; 10th September 2018 at 12:41.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:01   #52325  |  Link
Manni
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@Manni - Yup 399.07 works as you said.... still it is all a PITA, esp with HDR on UHD HFR material on the JVC. Looking forward to just using madVR to map HDR to SDR and just use 8-Bit.
As I said, I didn't test passthough as I only use pixel shader now. It seems to be working fine in 10bits with the driver set to 12bits, so not sure why you'd want to use 8bits, at least at 23p.

There is a new public build of MadVR coming up, and at least for JVC users I highly recommend to use HDR to SDR with pixel shader. Far better HDR than using passthrough on the JVCs, so nothing to lose except the auto calibration switch from the Vertex if you have one, as MadVR isn't able yet to report SDR BT2020 or SDR DCI-P3 in the HDMI stream to let the Vertex know what is coming out. Still, the PQ improvement is now well worth losing this convenience. The main drawback is to have to select manually the correct calibration user mode.

Hopefully Madshi will as some point be able to find a custom API to output the HDMI metadata for SDR, the way a standalone player does. Or will get the macro commands to work reliably with the JVCs.
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Last edited by Manni; 10th September 2018 at 11:03.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:59   #52326  |  Link
jmone
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I use my HTPC / JVC with a mix of media, BD / UHD with HDR / TV / Gaming etc and at frame rates from 23.976 to 59.94. If I want HDR working at 50/59.94 the HDMI limit will be 8-Bit at 4:4:4. I "presume" that once the HDR -> SDR work is done, I can just set my bit depth to 8-Bit and let madVR do the HDR -> SDR for content with HDR and like the non HDR material it should all "just work" with JVC at all frame rates..... or am I missing something that needs higher than 8-Bit?
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:01   #52327  |  Link
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what's wrong/limitation with running in native gamut and letting a 3D LUT take care of it?

if you want the "best" PQ a 3d lut is the way to go.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:01   #52328  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jmone View Post
I use my HTPC / JVC with a mix of media, BD / UHD with HDR / TV / Gaming etc and at frame rates from 23.976 to 59.94. If I want HDR working at 50/59.94 the HDMI limit will be 8-Bit at 4:4:4. I "presume" that once the HDR -> SDR work is done, I can just set my bit depth to 8-Bit and let madVR do the HDR -> SDR for content with HDR and like the non HDR material it should all "just work" with JVC at all frame rates..... or am I missing something that needs higher than 8-Bit?
you are missing nothing.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:16   #52329  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by jmone View Post
I use my HTPC / JVC with a mix of media, BD / UHD with HDR / TV / Gaming etc and at frame rates from 23.976 to 59.94. If I want HDR working at 50/59.94 the HDMI limit will be 8-Bit at 4:4:4. I "presume" that once the HDR -> SDR work is done, I can just set my bit depth to 8-Bit and let madVR do the HDR -> SDR for content with HDR and like the non HDR material it should all "just work" with JVC at all frame rates..... or am I missing something that needs higher than 8-Bit?
UHD Bluray content is 10bits, so while you can dither it to 8bits and get very good results, why not make the most of the fact that the JVCs are native 12bits panels from input to panel and ask MadVR to dither to 10bits instead?

The drivers switches automatically between RGB 4:4:4 12bits 23p (for video content) and RGB 4:4:4 8bits 60p for 60p video or games, so why not take advantage of this?

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what's wrong/limitation with running in native gamut and letting a 3D LUT take care of it?

if you want the "best" PQ a 3d lut is the way to go.
Projectors lose a lot of native contrast when you open the iris to get more brightness. So you're leaving A LOT of performance if you use the same native gamut for calibrating both HDR and SDR.

If you use your HDR calibration (say DCI-P3 with the P3 filter on for the wider gamut and the iris fully open to get max brightness for HDR), the SDR calibration is non-optimal (with raised black levels and about half of the native contrast you could get).

Plus in that case you get too much brightness for SDR in a dedicated room, so you have to either use a 3D LUT that limits the brightness (hence kills your contrast) or get blinded by a reference white at 100nits or more for SDR, which is about twice as much as what we're aiming for in a dedicated room.

For example, in my case I get around 100nits with the iris fully open in DCI-P3, and only around 40,000:1 on.off. The black floor is also raised.

If I use this calibration for HDR, I get blinded with 100nits reference white, and I leave a lot of on/off and black levels on the table.

With my SDR calibration, I aim for 50nits reference white, I lower the iris down to -10, it gives me double native on/off contrast (around 80,000:1) and a far better black floor.

I do use a 3D LUT for each calibration, but they cannot apply to the same baseline without losing a lot of performance in one mode or the other.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:26   #52330  |  Link
huhn
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sorry for asking a question... seriously... sorry that i wanted to know why? my mistake i will not do it again and die in ignorance.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:29   #52331  |  Link
Manni
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sorry for asking a question... seriously... sorry that i wanted to know why? my mistake i will not do it again and die in ignorance.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood the tone of your post. I've edited mine.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:39   #52332  |  Link
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Specifics can catch you out, sometimes we think we know the answers and are humbled by others.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:43   #52333  |  Link
Manni
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@nevcairiel, @huhn

Apologies to both of you, I didn't read your posts correctly (I guess I'm having bad morning) and have edited my replies. Sorry about that.
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Last edited by Manni; 10th September 2018 at 12:45.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:48   #52334  |  Link
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Thanks for the replies. I've been lurking on the AVS thread and doing my own testing but I'm waiting for the public release that should (according to madshi) have a subs off screen bug fixed. I've also got a a couple of custom profiles set to change settings for HFR HDR material (like Billy Lynn) as that is going to flog the GPU with HDR->SDR @ 59.94fps. Will play more with the 10 vs 8-Bit at that point.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:53   #52335  |  Link
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Is there a best practice to deal with the typically darker HDR picture on an SDR set? I know this is normal, but I don't want to rule out the better bitrate and higher res of 4K HDR content entirely.
This will vary from video to video I guess..
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:58   #52336  |  Link
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Main warning: in order to apply the usual custom mode created by MadVR using the EDID/CTA settings, I had to enable it manually in the nVidia CP afterwards, otherwise it doesn't show up in the list of available modes.

Main annoyance: you still have to set the bit depth to 12bits BEFORE selecting the custom res. Once the custom res is selected, bit depth is locked to 8bits and displays as such, but 12bits is still applied internally, at least at 30p and below. Above 30p, the drivers switches to 8bits automatically.
Hi Manni, how did you manually enable the custom res in Nvidia control panel? For some reason when I go into the control panel, the custom res isn't anywhere to be found, yet MadVR is able to switch to it (once MadVR switches to it, it's listed in the driver under 'custom resolutions', but once I switch back to a native mode, the custom res is gone again!).

Also, regarding 12 bit, what is a good way to test if 12 bits is being output when the drivers says 8 bit?

I know Madshi said he didn't want to implement this but it'd be much easier if there was a way to select bit depth in MadVR under Display Modes - we can already select resolution and refresh rate, bit depth seems like a logical addition. Maybe it can't be done?

Also I wish Nvidia would add back 10 bit output for RGB but I guess that will never happen...maybe Madshi could in the case of a 12 bit driver setting, output 12 bit directly from MadVR (by proper padding or whatever needs to happen to do it right) cos no one seems to know what Nvidia is doing.
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Old 10th September 2018, 13:02   #52337  |  Link
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I already asked for this over a year ago and there was no way to switch bit depth outside of the control panel.
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Old 10th September 2018, 13:11   #52338  |  Link
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There doesn't seem to be a reliable way to switch bit depth inside the control panel either lol, always reverts back to 8 bit after a reboot or waking up from sleep, or at least it does for me...bloody Nvidia!

I did manage to create a custom res with CRU by putting in the info from MadVR (custom res listed under 'PC' in the Nvidia control panel), and I can switch between 8 bit and 12 bit no problem (apart from the 12 bit setting not surviving a reboot), but for some reason I can't get MadVR to use it, so if anyone knows a workaround for that, please let me know :-)
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Old 10th September 2018, 13:17   #52339  |  Link
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The way that works for me with 385.28 is to set it to 12 while watching a video when madVR has changed the refresh rate, it sticks then.. I'm not using any custom madVR created custom res modes.
I might give the new drivers a shot, but the problems with all versions after 385.28 have always left me wondering why I even bothered.
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Old 10th September 2018, 13:20   #52340  |  Link
Manni
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Hi Manni, how did you manually enable the custom res in Nvidia control panel? For some reason when I go into the control panel, the custom res isn't anywhere to be found, yet MadVR is able to switch to it (once MadVR switches to it, it's listed in the driver under 'custom resolutions', but once I switch back to a native mode, the custom res is gone again!).

Also, regarding 12 bit, what is a good way to test if 12 bits is being output when the drivers says 8 bit?

I know Madshi said he didn't want to implement this but it'd be much easier if there was a way to select bit depth in MadVR under Display Modes - we can already select resolution and refresh rate, bit depth seems like a logical addition. Maybe it can't be done?

Also I wish Nvidia would add back 10 bit output for RGB but I guess that will never happen...maybe Madshi could in the case of a 12 bit driver setting, output 12 bit directly from MadVR (by proper padding or whatever needs to happen to do it right) cos no one seems to know what Nvidia is doing.
To enable the custom res after MadVR created it, I simply went the the nvidia CP, and in "change resolution" I clicked on "customize" and selected the custom res that appears in the list. After that, it appears in the list of custom res on the panel itself when changing res.

My whole process is:

- Uninstall current driver with DDU, reboot
- Install 399.07, custom, clean install, reboot
- Select 7.1 in windows control panel for sound, disable all enhencements
- Set power management mode to Adaptive in Manage 3D settings
- In change resolution, set resolution to 4K2K (native), set refresh rate to 30p, apply, then select use nVidia color settings, set bit depth to 12bits (only possible at 30p or below, only possible with a standard, not custom res), set output to RGB Full.
- Close nVidia CP
- In MadVR, create a custom res for 23p, (EDIT 23p, select EDID/CTA for the JVCs), reset GPU
- In nVidia CP, I select customize in change resolution, enable the custom res just created by MadVR
- the custom res should appear in the list in the main CP
- I select 23p refresh rate, that's my default for 90% of my content
- Once the 23p custom res is selected, the driver shows 8bits and can't be changed, but the output is actually 10bits. I check this with my Vertex. The driver will also say it's 24p, but it isn't, that an old CP bug.
- Whenever I need to play 50/80p, the driver selects 8bits automatically.
- I use profiles to adapt processing/upscaling/rendering settings depending on 23p12bits (MadVR set to 10bits or more dithering) and 60p8bits (MadVR set to 8bits dithering, and options are less taxing GPU power wise).

I think the 10bits limitation is a OS limitation rather than a GPU limitation, but Madshi would have to answer that one.

I can only say that sending 10bits over the 12bits GPU with the JVC works fine for 23-30p.

[EDIT: after more tests, the custom res doesn't seem to stick, so I'm back to 385.28]
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