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Old 3rd July 2017, 17:49   #161  |  Link
Ghitulescu
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I simply do not understand why I can add a blank cell 2/1 following eg 1/13, but it is beyond the scope of PGCedit to have it named as 1/14.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 19:22   #162  |  Link
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Because 1/14 MUST be a part of the VOB 1, and it's not the case, as I've explained above. The new cell is totally independent, and MUST therefore have a new VID. I can give it 3/1 if you wish (but VID 2 will be missing and it's not a good idea) but I can't give it VID 1, already used by VOB 1. And since a new VOB must be created, its cell is cell 1, and must therefore have CID 1.

Do not be confused by VOB (Video Object) and VOB file, the extension of the file or files containing one or several VOBs. What PgcEdit does is to create a new Video Object, and append it to the (last) VOB file of the domain. It cannot modify an existing VOB by adding a new cell to the VOB. That's simply not possible without very complex tools.

Anyway, if you really want to change the VID and CID of the cell added by PgcEdit, you can do it with VobEdit. That's easy since there is only one nav pack in the short cell. But you cannot do that, as you will not have the correct structure. IfoEdit and VobEdit let you do anything, including totally illegal things, therefore you can try to do it anyway. But of course do it at your own risk. Your DVD will be totally illegal and you will probably have severe playback issues.
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:27   #163  |  Link
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Maybe I am wrong but the way I understand the specs is that blank cells do not have any payload and consequently it doesn't matter whether they are or not part of the existing PGC/VOB (not as files but as concepts) since they are automatically compatible with anything before or after them.
A PGC is just a table comprising indexes.
You are right in what the actual file and object must be, but as I said, a blank cell should not pose any issue to the existing video objects.

I also understand it's a bit of work to be done in actualising several tables - it would have been nice ....
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Old 4th July 2017, 13:09   #164  |  Link
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The blank cells are indeed compatible with anything before and after them IF and ONLY IF they are separate video objects, and therefore they must have a new VOB ID. Otherwise, the timecodes will suddenly jump to incompatible values within the current VOB and the player may crash or may at least be confused. And that's only an example of the many bad things that can occur.

The PGC is relatively easy to modify to add a new VOB, or even to reference a new cell in an existing VOB, but the other tables must be actualized, and some of them may be tricky to modify and may require to scan the whole VOB. It's a big job, and I don't want to do it just so that you (and probably only you) can do illegal/incompatible things.

I must also add that I don't understand why you need that feature. You wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
This artificially logically adds a new "segment" - and some other programs interpret this as two parts (like eg main feature and its trailer or studio/authorhouse logo - there are commercial DVDs employing this scheme).
Indeed, sometimes, a new VOB is created by commercial programs for obscure reasons, but a new VOB MUST also be created when the angle changes, and many authoring programs add it also at the layer break position. That means that the division of a single movie into several VOBs is frequent and must NEVER be a problem, as otherwise many commercial DVDs would not work correctly. If you use a program that supports only a single VOB, that means that it has a big bug, and you should ask its programmer to fix it. It's not the job of PgcEdit to implement complex workarounds for badly programmed apps.
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Old 4th July 2017, 19:33   #165  |  Link
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<<
...Maybe I am wrong but the way I understand the specs is that blank cells do not have any payload and consequently it doesn't matter whether they are or not part of the existing PGC/VOB...
>>

Indeed, your understanding is shallow. Using your terminology, cells without "payload" simply do not exist on real DVDs. Of course when they are properly authored. Even when a cell is "blank", it must be always, by definition, a playable unit. Different is the case when bad (or totally screwed) authoring is in place intentionally to implement copy protection schemes. Infact, programs such as PgcEdit and others are able to add consistently blank cells to the PGCs of DVDs as new VOBs. These cells are blank, but not void: they contain a single playable VOBu, including a NavPack, a single GOP composed by a single I-frame consisting of a black picture and (I think) some padding bytes.

Apart the above details, I am fully in line with the answers already provided by r0lZ on the matter: there is no point to enable PgcEdit to create rubbish...

Last edited by Sir Didymus; 4th July 2017 at 20:02.
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:01   #166  |  Link
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I only asked nicely if it is possible to do this.

To my knowledge, there is possible to have cells without any payload as it is possible to have VOBUs with no video.
It is also not forbidden to refer (almost) any offset from (almost) anywhere - yes, this is usually used in copyright protection schemes (I think).

So, if it is too much work I would not insist, of course. I thought that this would have required a simply daisy-chaining of pointers to the next full/empty VOBU.


I do not understand however why this is "illegal", or "rubbish"...
I am sorry I caused this misunderstanding... feature request withdrawn with immediate effect.

Thank you for your good work
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:14   #167  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
I only asked nicely if it is possible to do this.
No problem. I only tried to explain why I don't want to do it. And again, if some programs are not compatible with multi-VOB PGCs, then that programs are responsible of your problem, not PgcEdit. The short cells currently implemented in PgcEdit are fully compatible with the DVD-Video specs (hence the term "legal") and they should work with all players or programs. I see no reason to implement (with difficulty) things that are most probably "illegal" or, at least, dangerous.

@Sir Didymus: Thanks for your support. :-)
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Old 5th July 2017, 10:10   #168  |  Link
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<<
To my knowledge, there is possible to have cells without any payload as it is possible to have VOBUs with no video.
>>

This statement is totally wrong, and it is based on an implication using a very weak logic.

It is true that it is possible to have legit VOBUs without video, but they must be (always and in any case) playable units.

So, as "void VOBUs" do not exist, since they must have at least a Navigation Pack and some other digital information and padding bytes, physically readable by the laser spot of the DVD reader, for the same reason "void cells" or "cells without payload" are just ideas which do not exist in real DVD, and that cannot by supported by any technical specifications. So, these "void cells" are illegal stuff. Again, blank cells are not "void" cells!

Creativity is nice. Specs and DVD compliancy is another thing.

P.S. There was no intention to sound offensive in my post above. The term "rubbish" was used just to designate inconsistent stuff, badly organized concepts, and similar things, to stay definitely away from... OK?

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Old 5th July 2017, 11:06   #169  |  Link
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I am finishing this discussion since it's clear that I was not understood

I was not discussing a cell without anything, SIZE: 0, as you think I wanted.

I was was discussing a cell that has all the attributes of a normal cell (as seen by the player), including the navigation tables, but no true content (as seen by the user). This way the original video structure (as seen by the file system) remained unchanged, only the sequence of pointers in the navigation could have been slightly changed.

And such cell can, besides, be placed anywhere in the chain, for the sequence of cells (as seen by the file system) does not necessarily need to be consecutive and can comprise gaps. It's maybe bad programming/authoring, but not illegal. That's the whole reason of having pointers in the first place.



But as I said, I do not want this anymore. It's kind enough that someone created such a software in the first place...
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Old 5th July 2017, 11:19   #170  |  Link
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OK, thanks for understanding. I close this discussion too.
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Old 5th July 2017, 12:28   #171  |  Link
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Yes, Gitulescu, r0lZ. I also agree to refrain going on with this discussion. Let me just add (and this will be my last post here) that apparently Ghitulescu assumes that Navigation Information and the other PLAYABLE content of a cell is only stored in the IFO files. It isn't. Indeed the most relevant part of it is stored in the VOB files... Even for blank cells and also for VOBUs without video content...
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Old 6th July 2017, 11:02   #172  |  Link
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That is an incorrect deduction...

I referred initially strictly to a PGC, but the function there is named "Create new cell" and the discussion deviated into another domain. Therefore the discussion went into two paths, I discussing the logical addressing and r0lZ the file system one (the two are indeed weaved). I do not know how one came to the conclusion that I meant the content (maybe there is a problem in defining what content is - I meant here the payload, the PES streams of audio, video and subtitles; but not the cell's identification) of a cell to be in IFO ...

I thought the implementation would have been a straight one, since in both cases (new different VID vs. new identical VID) the same tables had to be modified in IFO and the same navigation packet had to be identically changed. It appears I was wrong.

That was just to clarify the things (at least for me).
Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
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Old 4th August 2017, 17:26   #173  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
... and to you and Wombler for your patient work on the manual, and to all beta testers for their wonderful job!

I would like to thank also all donors. Thanks to them, I am still motivated to continue to develop PgcEdit, although some additional donations are still welcome!
You're more than welcome - I find PGCEdit absolutely invaluable in daily use and it solves a number of issues in both Scenarist SD & DVD-Lab Pro 2.
I just wish there was a DVD-Audio equivalent tool.
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Old 5th August 2017, 07:44   #174  |  Link
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Thanks.
And sorry for not working on a DVD-Audio editor. AFAIK, only a few DVD-Audio discs have been produced, and IMO it is not worth doing something like PgcEdit for them.
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Old 5th August 2017, 11:07   #175  |  Link
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Absolutely no apologies necessary - there are probably under 5,000 out there in total so I completely understand and it is almost impossible to get the actual specs without spending scads of cash too.
The authoring tool we use is extremely robust though (Sonic/MEI DVD-Audio Creator) and all the problems are usually with the associated Video_TS rather than the Audio_TS anyway.
PGCEdit rocks and I get an awful lot of use out of it, and consider my donations up there with the best money I have ever spent.
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